Hi Ilona may I ask you to be my guide?

[junjo]

Hi Ilona,

I is a thought, can a thought think? Can a thought understand anything

A thought is a thought and cannot think nor understand. Therefore I, that is a thought, can't understand, cannot think? But we're having a conversation here. Understanding eachother, i'm investigating through looking, searching?
No why's but trying to grasp, trying to see.
In a way my life has changed because of LU. I feel relieved, sort of more free and more loving and far more accepting and just letting life unfold without to much future stuff or worries.

Does understanding affects sense of being?

So yes, understanding affects sense of being. More in the 'awaring' than before. So it seems to me anyway?
But aliveness is simple here and now.

Very very puzzled dear Ilona
Xx form Junjo

[Ilona]

But we're having a conversation here. Understanding eachother, i'm investigating through looking, searching?

It appears so, yes. But what is actually happening? Right now these words are seen and meaning understood. Then watch how reply happens- fingers type, thought comes in, action follows. "We are having are having a conversation" - is a thought story description over what is happening. Mind labels all, tells the story. Is that mind you? Is the voice in the head you? What is the voice talking to? What is listening? Is voice in the head talking to you?

Does aliveness need to be sustained by stories? Are you in charge of keeping aliveness on? Or it's on by default? Do you need to keep trying to survive?

Oh, and welcome confusion, it's good, it shows that old beliefs are falling off. :)

Sending love.

[junjo]

Hi Ilona,
Here's puzzled Junjo!

Does aliveness need to be sustained by stories?

NO!

Are you in charge of keeping aliveness on?

Not at all???

Or it's on by default?

That's a good one! It's surely on by default.
But what's this then? What's understanding? What's saying yes/no? How come it at least seems that my behavior and feelings change because of what we discuss here? That my perception of live and people and this so called me has changed? That I feel more connected and almost never loneliness comes up as it did for years and very painfully did?
Something is responding? Or making the illusion felt?

Do you need to keep trying to survive?

Yes otherwise I can't pay the rent, my food, not eat nor drink. It will take a while, but finally this body will dry out and die.
But… I feel so stupid that this dichotomy still exists between conventional reality/illusion and seeing through the believe system. I know but don't believe? But there's no I! Thoughts can turn in circles for years, it's so tiresome. Worst of all I can't really explain why I don't see, understand, grasp or relieve old belief systems. Brain fails me, thoughts are useless, they can't think there way out anymore. But what then? What's after thinking?
It's hard. I want to but I can't.
I'm not in control but resist.
But there's nothing to resist and also the resisting part is not a me or an I… pfffff

Very confused love sendings
Junjo

[Ilona]

Have a closer look here: you say that aliveness is on by default and in another sentence you say that you have to try to survive, which one actually is true?

When body needs food, is it thinking that makes it go to the fridge?
What comes first, the sensation of thirst or thought about having a drink?
Is it thinking that drives actions or thinking describes what impulses come up?
Have a good look today, how action happens? How things get done? Do you need to try to make things happen or they happen by themselves?

Look in ordinary everyday actions- washing up, shower, toilet, eating, walking, sleeping... What is going on in actuality?

Send love.

[junjo]

Hello Ilona,

Is it thinking that drives actions or thinking describes what impulses come up?

First there's action then there's thought. Allways!
Thinking describes what impulses come up!
Things happen!
But still puzzled. It also seems I make choices, like posting here and I have my to do lists...
Who's/what's doing me?

Sending love
Junjo

[Ilona]

Tell me what exactly do you make happen? What is not on automatic?
are you the chooser? What about free will? Free from what?
Can you ever make a choice that is independent of everything else happening? Give me examples.


Sending love.

[junjo]

Tell me what exactly do you make happen? What is not on automatic?

!!!!!!
Are you kidding me?
I'm not responsible for my deeds? At all!
Inquiring whole day. Can't find anything which isn't on automatic. But still searching.
Walking on the street this afternoon burst out laughing. So funny! 'This' is walking though the 'thought-I' thinks it's walking?
Only life? Only breathing? I cannot stop breathing! In the breath very strongly no control.
But still: planning, learning, mastering, awaring... How does it work. Can I just to what is? And trust and flow?

What remains is love and wonder?
Sending love
Junjo

[Ilona]

You trust the flow or don't, approve or not, resist, accept or fight against it, it's irrelevant to flow. It is part of the flow. It's what is happening. And what is happening needs no approval from you. So all this trust or not trust is really just a mind game. It's all happening. Resisting what is shows some sticky points, stuff that comes up gets looked at and released. That is just happening too.

Is there ever anything wrong? What makes this right or wrong? What about mistakes, are there, were ever mistakes?

Lots of love your way.

[junjo]

Investigating coming back to you soon!

xx

[junjo]

Is there ever anything wrong? What makes this right or wrong? What about mistakes, are there, were ever mistakes?

If there's no I there's nothing wrong, there are no mistakes there's just happening.
There's no choice, no free will, just deeds and no doer.
But, this is my mind working. Experience falls behind. Sometimes when you point and I look, there's this large sort of nothing- consciousness without prefererences nor right and wrongs.
But mostly there's the struggle between (sticky things?) old believes and new experience/perception of complete belonging, merging without bounderies, and laughter. But this experience, is still scarce.
Since I don't choose anyway that's totally okay haha!
But still longing for a sort of complete revelation and yes I know this is an expectation.
Strange?
On this forum it's asked to be honest, to stick with the gating, to post everyday. If there's no free will, why rules like these ones? Why asking? Who's honest anyway? And What's posting everyday?
Puzzled.
What looks?
What relieves the sticky stuff?
What's resisting? Only mind, mind games? Mind playing hide and seek with awareness?


Sending love,
Junjo

[Ilona]

Nice questions. How would you answer them all?
:)

[junjo]

Hihihihihihih

[junjo]

Hi Ilona,

You know what? Merging is lovely and transparant and people are interestingly vulnerable. If mind tries to understand it gets stuck. If looking/experiencing/perceiving it doesn't care but cares more than ever? I don't understand but it feels good and so so loving. And the funniest thing is this writing went all by itself.

Sending love,
Junjo

[Ilona]

Sweet! I see the change in your tone :)
Can you say with a big fat YES, ITS CLEAR, there is no separate self in charge of life?
If so, are you ready for final questions?
If not, what else is there to be looked at?

Sending love.

[junjo]

Not yet a big fat yes.
But a looooooooong question!
Okay lets investigate again.
I seem to see some inconsistencies in the LU no-self view, as I indicated somewhere in the above dialogue: what's honest, why the rules, what’s posting anyway? but still, things happen so it’s perfectly allright as it is as well.
According to the ancient Buddhist texts and the explanation of the living authority on the old texts Bhikkhu Bodhi, what Liberation Unleashed represents is a nihilistic view of being human (not wat he literally says but my interpretation).
We are the mechanic sum of DNA and are not responsible for our deeds because there is only deeds and no doer. No volition, no intention, nor ethics (right and wrongs).
This materialistic world is an illusion because it only exists because we cling to an I, to what it relates to. Because 'we think' there's an I, me, mine, things seem to be happening, we seem to be in control or capable to manipulate reality, and make ethical distinctions and choices.
There’s no life or afterlife only this constant changing, endless not happening NOW.

But to see this there has to be looking or direct experience first. To experience this mind shift that can even have physical repercussions, but certainly effects on levels of emotions (like fear vanishes, even some people get released of phobias) and thoughts, there is something experiencing this.
Consciousness?? But since this awareness isn’t controlled by a 'me', where and how is this mind shift appearing? And it seems to appear, or work, because lots of people are ‘gating’.
Or is this whole set-up another mind game? Another illusion? Even experiences you see/feel for yourself can be delusive?
And finally, what I notice: that I want so much this axiom of -no-self- to be true, I experience chances and shifts in views in my -not-self- looking, but the appear perhaps only because of my eagerness. Because I/this want it so much?
This experiencing because of wanting, is also a known phenomenon.

To investigate further in 'real life' I'm doing the following: Since earning a living doesn't really matter, I bought sunglasses I always wanted to have because of my headaches, but I never could afford them and still can't. I'm a mom without a partner and without a job.
Also I eat a lot of sweets now because I enjoy them so much! Getting fat is not happening anyway. I'm also more accepting and open and transparent to others. I'm doing more and more what I really like doing, and I am enjoying this living experience tremendously! Free in awaring. Very enthusiastic about it! Since I'm not the chooser or the responsible individual and since everything is on automatic by default, it's not even me who's choosing. So it's all good!
I'm really honest about what I'm doing now.
Still this –not being responsible for my deeds, no existing free will or free choice– reminds me very much of Dutch calvinism. Where some people still refuse to vaccinate their children against pox and polio because of 'God's will'. Not that I believe in a god now, but it's not me, or nothing really in control just consciousness that makes the deeds, feelings, thoughts. In fact everything just is and that's so allright!
Help?

Never been so philosophical before. Investigating on automatic ha!

Sending lots of Love,
Junjo