Requesting a guide

[Cheryl]

just wanted to tell abt something that came up for me. lots of thoughts... constant thoughts. i've read a couple of articles and its like I can see that everything does sort of revolve around perception and thought. i'm this constantly perceiving machine and then there are arising thoughts abt the perceiving and then there are more thoughts about those thoughts!

[Cheryl]

it feels like there is a self because if thoughts and sensations...

[Devina]

i'm this constantly perceiving machine and then there are arising thoughts abt the perceiving and then there are more thoughts about those thoughts!

Yes... lots of thoughts. :) Is there a self there anywhere, causing the thoughts? Choosing them? Saying them? Hearing them?
In the moment before each thought, can these events be found?

Typing is another way to watch thoughts. Watch the process of hands on keyboard, where words come from. Is there any actual thinking going on? Any control?

What about perceiving? Does a self actually perceive? Do perceptions come from "out there" to "in here" to smack into a person who then interprets them... or is something much simpler going on? Take a look. What does experience really seem like, before any theories about how it works? What's already obvious?

[Devina]

I could say that self was looking for self.

Then, look for what is looking. If thought says the self must be somewhere else, look there too. Is it true? Find out.

[Devina]

I'd have to say I really don't know if it (personality) can be examined.

This is another good place to look. Watch the next time a preference happens - say, choosing lunch from a menu, or an outfit from the closet. In the seconds before movement, what happens? Is a choice really being made, or just waited for? A feeling might pop up, like thought, but does it come from a self?

*No, habits are not chosen. They are a result of conditioning/circumstance.

Is anything in the universe not a result of conditions and circumstances?

[Cheryl]

Yes... lots of thoughts. :) Is there a self there anywhere, causing the thoughts? Choosing them? Saying them? Hearing them?

*Well, it used to be that it felt like there was a choice not to think about something or to not 'feed' a thought. But there wasn't a tangible self/i/cheryl making those 'decisions'. Something? recognized that thinking was happening and then could step out of the story, out of the thinking. Thoughts just arising mostly.

In the moment before each thought, can these events be found?

*No the thoughts seem to just come one after another, well maybe unless there is a specific contemplation going on or a specific focus... hmm but even then when contemplation is happening there is this sort of directing a question and then waiting to see what arises.

Typing is another way to watch thoughts. Watch the process of hands on keyboard, where words come from. Is there any actual thinking going on? Any control?

*There might be a thought about the first word or sentence but then everything kind of flows from whatever or wherever.. There are specific thoughts abt what I'm going to write but then when i type there doesn't seem to be thinking happening just the words coming out.

What about perceiving? Does a self actually perceive? Do perceptions come from "out there" to "in here" to smack into a person who then interprets them... or is something much simpler going on? Take a look. What does experience really seem like, before any theories about how it works? What's already obvious?

*Yeh, what is it that is perceiving?... this sense of self seems to be perceiving and yet i know that perceiving is happening all the time but it doesn't always register. So there doesn't have to be a self attached to the perceiving i guess.
Not sure what you mean when you say " What does experience really seem like, before any theories about how it works? What's already obvious?"

[Cheryl]

Then, look for what is looking. If thought says the self must be somewhere else, look there too. Is it true? Find out.

*Well, the fact that there is perceiving inside and outside would seem to mean that whatever THIS is is everywhere but also is bound by the form somehow. But there is no tangible self inside or outside.

This is another good place to look. Watch the next time a preference happens - say, choosing lunch from a menu, or an outfit from the closet. In the seconds before movement, what happens? Is a choice really being made, or just waited for? A feeling might pop up, like thought, but does it come from a self?

*Yeh, um many times in the mornings as i get ready for work some decision needs to be made abt what to wear. And it all seems overwhelming so it often happens that I look up and see the time is getting close and i grab something to wear without having consciously made a decision. And choosing from a menu same thing, like sometimes i know specifically want i want but other times i wait till others have chosen and then just with whatever comes out of my mouth! hahaha!

Is anything in the universe not a result of conditions and circumstances?

*actually, i used to believe that the only thing i knew for certain was that everything changes but with pointing from various gurus i recognize that there's at least one thing that doesn't change and that is presence. presence is always here. but then i don't know if presence is considered to be 'in the universe' :)

[Cheryl]

thoughts happened totally unrelated to what was being perceived thru the senses!

[Devina]

thoughts happened totally unrelated to what was being perceived thru the senses!

Good catch!

*No the thoughts seem to just come one after another, well maybe unless there is a specific contemplation going on or a specific focus... hmm but even then when contemplation is happening there is this sort of directing a question and then waiting to see what arises.

What about "directing the question"?... is that chosen, or does it just arise too?

This is the only question for the day, so take time experimenting with it.

[Cheryl]

What about "directing the question"?... is that chosen, or does it just arise too?

D,
It also arises, the thoughts arise and then thinking can happen depending on where the attention is. The choosing comes in as a sort of function of thinking. It wasn't chosen before it arose.

[Cheryl]

i was reading your thread from back in 2012 and you said that you realized that you've been trying to agree with everything instead of admitting that you do feel like there is a me. A couple days ago I finally uncovered that I was trying to disagree with everything and that i did still feel like there is a me!

I also felt this: "I keep running away from these questions because they confuse me, and it's late when I see them, and I feel like any insights I have will be blurry or not "stick"... " from the same post.

There is a tiny shifting going on i think with the 'feeling like i need to disagree with everything' and the running away from the questions. There is no judgment in this process, everything is just happening as part of this process of liberation.

[Devina]

Disagreement doesn't really matter. Only curiosity enough to look, to check, see if there's any truth in those assertions. Thoughts talk like they know what's going on, but do they really? Deep down, are those answers satisfactory?

So any question can be a gate, if it is explored deeply enough. Every protest can be a gate, once it is humbly questioned.

i did still feel like there is a me!

Is the feeling true? Literally, look for evidence that the feeling means anything. So far, it's a tautology - the feeling must be true because it feels true. But is it really?

[Devina]

In perception, where is this feeling, how does it appear, how strong is it? Does it actually point to anything?

[Cheryl]

Disagreement doesn't really matter. Only curiosity enough to look, to check, see if there's any truth in those assertions. Thoughts talk like they know what's going on, but do they really? Deep down, are those answers satisfactory?

*I guess if those answers had been satisfactory I wouldn’t be in the place I am now, searching for the truth… Some thinking is so convincing that it’s hard to see past, it SEEMS hard to see past at least. There was an exercise I looked at last night. It went something like “Is the I there before the thought? Or does it arise with the thought?” My intellectual answer was it arises with thought. But then I remembered, ok this is supposed to be direct experience. So I looked at this and I looked for thought and I had all these ideas about how to look and then I decided to just stick with the question “Is I there before the thought?”. So that question became the thought, the window. There was searching for the I before the thought, but it couldn’t be seen. Over and Over I sat with this and looked for the I but then I realized it was only appearing with the thought and that’s why I couldn’t find it just sitting there not thinking. And then it was seen clearly that without thought ‘I’ is not there… and I know there must be more to explore with that recognition; like I feel like I should do something else with this seeing but not sure what.

Is the feeling true? Literally, look for evidence that the feeling means anything. So far, it's a tautology - the feeling must be true because it feels true. But is it really?

*It seems like all that’s holding this feeling together is thoughts.. and the feeling of I persists because I’ve been so well programmed,, or I guess I might as well say that my thoughts have been well programmed to lead me in the direction of a me.

In perception, where is this feeling, how does it appear, how strong is it? Does it actually point to anything?

*In perception this feeling of me is only coming with thinking, and with thoughts; otherwise it isn’t there and it seems to only point to more thoughts about itself. Its very strong because it seems that there can’t be thinking without it there. Everything I identify or identify with brings this I into being and yet perceptually there is no finding it. Now it feels like everything going thru my head is fiction based on fiction. Not sure what to trust.

[Cheryl]

Hi D,
Wanted to share something with you.This evening on the long bus ride home a certain chain of events brought more seeing. I was reading when suddenly a blood curdling scream came from the back and to the right of me, I looked up to see a young pregnant (abt 8.5 months) woman standing at her seat, eyes rolling back hand clutched somewhere around her collar bone, folks sprang into action telling the driver to pull over and others lay her on the floor while someone called 911. The only thought that popped into my HEAD was 'does she have an airway? is she breathing' to which someone replied she was breathing. (have had a little street medic training in the past).

What was significant to me was that there was no I there. there was just the experience of what was happening, a rush of adrenaline, a surveying of the scene and only later thoughts started coming into my head about what i should have done blah, blah, blah.. but what needed doing was already being done. Another thing that happened was that the young woman initially and for about 4/5 minutes couldn't remember her name. She could NOT recall who she was and yet there she was existing just the same (this reminds me of some of the teachings about babies existing yet not having a sense of 'I').