Guide request

[John LB]

Dear B.

Just a quick one, I had a very interesting moment today, I was sitting in a tea shop in the Clyde Valley just before going to site, it suddenly struck me in a moment of clear insight:

Everything comes and goes
Except the one 'thing' that isn't thing
And that neither comes nor goes
Never noticed that 'till now
How funny, how very funny
Here is a sweet and tender innocence at the heart of all experience.

I've been studying this stuff for 8 yrs now and it was there all the time!

I was there for about half an hour with a smile on my face and gently chuckling to myself before having to leave to go to the construction site to engage in a dispute with a contractor who was complaining about the specification that I, as designer, had stipulated. It was lighter than expected!

J.

[aubergine99]

Hi John,

Yes, it is kind of wonderful! Simply looking is it all takes.

The truth is here even when thinking is not.

Brigitte

[John LB]

Dear B.

Thank you for the support - I think it was your last post together with having been away with Rupert for a week which really helped. The seeing was clear an unmistakeable. It was rather like Rupert had one explained that for some people seeing through the separate self is kind of spectacular, for others its more like – “of course - how silly of me!” I think I fall into the latter.

It has been a nice couple of days - there is a sweetness to life. In my usual phlegmatic and doubtful way I have wondered about what was experienced in the tea shop and if I finally 'had it' or 'gated' as I have heard it said. What happened? ..... the answer is nothing really. Just a seeing in a different way. Nice. Right. True.

I was wondering well if the conventional I is a temporary thought / bit of thinking then what about all the other stuff? And then in that instant I was that the only constant is awareness. Sweet. No fireworks but just ..Yes!

So, ready for the final questions - yep!

Best wishes

John

[aubergine99]

Here are the final questions:

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6)Anything to add?

Take your time and answer as fully as you can.

I wait to hear from you.

Brigitte.

[aubergine99]

Hi John,

Is everything ok?

Brigitte

[John LB]

Dear Brigitte,

thankyou for asking - yes everything is ok. I will be in touch properly tomorrow. Difficult times at work plus lots going on here!

Many thanks,

John

[John LB]

Dear Brigitte,

Thank you for following up – yes everything is fine, but work has been very very difficult in terms of, a particular project, time, finances and difficulties with a co-director. As the Managing Director (not my natural environment) it has been a hard time, which, depending on your view point is either a very good or very bad time to be doing this enquiry. And an hour ago another problem has landed on the desk.
Anyway I have been spending many hours resting with the final questions and despite the travails, am in quite a peaceful place.

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I have repeatedly looked and never found a separate, discrete self. As of now it actually seems a silly question to ask “is there a separate entity?” The answer comes No; of course not, how could there be? There is not a ‘thing’ which is separate from awareness i.e. not known by awareness. If there was how could it ever be known? Now, whilst this has been true for a while, upon the ‘looking’ for the separate entity; it now seems clearer or just known, without the need to especially look for it.
In respect of investigated experience, all places, shapes, and forms and thoughts are never found to be separate. All activities which could suggest a separate self, come and go – if any of them were ‘me’ it has become abundantly clear that, I could not remain when they go – and they do – but I never do. Even if they were ‘me’ they are still known by awareness.
Was there ever a separate self? Well, from memory, it seemed like there was a ‘me’ but it now seems rather a silly idea, and more so when I realise how seriously it was taken.

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It varies, but generally it is a feeling or variety of feelings which combine the idea of being the body with a narrative/history, with current likes & dislikes, plans and regrets. This illusion is a sense in the background as it were, which is taken to be a unique intimate personal Identity on whose behalf, behaviours such as desire, rejection or defence/aggrandisement are played out. The arising of the illusion is often associated with emotional reactions or a story/narrative and a bodily feeling. The illusion for me starts most obviously when there is a situation with another person where there is some form of criticism /attack and the emotion arises and by habit is linked to the supposed personal self, upon whose behalf the story is being read and who purports to owner of the body where the feelings are being felt.
As I see it now, the illusion can be seen as a kind of imposter or more accurately a joke to the extent that the frequency of its emergence and the piquancy of the attached experience are both reduced. The overwhelming reaction now is ‘just don’t be daft’!

Just this afternoon there has been another problem reported from the site and the reaction has not been personal but, ok, so what is this new thing? Which is quite a change for me.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Calm, gentle and amusing – not at all like I expected! (having read various accounts from people who have been through LU). The feeling is more like “of course!”… “duh!!”, spacious, free. I notice that I am laughing more and just feel more peaceful. E.g. there was a dispute with a contractor on site, but it seemed to loose its edge or stickiness and the situation resolved without much fuss at all. Previously I know that this would have been very upsetting and disturbing for me (I have never really had very good ‘skills’ at dealing with conflict). Life moves along. Likewise at the weekend just gone, we were helping out a friend by sawing up some trees which had fallen across a public footpath. This guy walked up – clearly had a real issue about the trees blocking his path – an argument quickly ensued but rather than find it unpleasant, I found it all rather funny and the posturing seemed ridiculous.

Given that the seeing has been so gentle. I do still rather question however whether I have ‘got it’ I guess that is my nature. Being completely honest with myself, there has been a clear though subtle dissolution of the solidity of the individual self. As Blake said, As a man is so he sees – if one looks for uncertainty that what one will find. If one looks for certainty equally that will turn up.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last bit that pushed me over? I was sitting having a cup of tea enquiring into the nature and location of the separate self and also what I took the separate self to be. In a timeless place I realised that the thought ‘me/I’ only show up from time to time, and when it does it is in the form of a thought, referencing or claiming to reference a memory/action. I thought well that is of no greater solidity than that of the orange that I did as one of the early questions in this process. I started out by trying to see if there was any hierarchy of truth amongst different thoughts. It then struck me very clearly that like the orange fell from awareness, so to from time to time does the ‘me’. This is exactly what happens with all perceptions and all contents of awareness. Nothing is constant except the one thing that is not a thing and that is what I am. It was clear as day. I sat drinking tea just chuckling to myself.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6)Anything to add?

Can I answer 5 and 6 tomorrow – I need to leave to sort something out now.


Kind regards


John

[John LB]

Dear Brigitte,

5. I always thought that I did, but now looking closely, tracing back each apparent choice one finds that the action either just happens or the apparent decision upon which an action subsequently is based, just appears in consciousness. I am in Germany now for Christmas holidays (my wife is German). It appears that we decided to come to Germany, but that was based on the availability of my sister, which in turn depended on the health of her mother in law etc. etc. So even looking from a dependent or contingent point of view, it is difficult to say I decided to come to Germany. Even if it could be allowed that a clear decision to come here was made, in the last couple of weeks, if I look for the 'person' who made the decision - that person can not be found.

6. Anything to add? I think I have said already - it seems so subtle - not at all what I was expecting, That coupled with my general tendency to doubt leads me to asking - have I understood this all properly?

Best wishes and many thanks again Brigitte - I hoep that you have a lovely Christmas whatever you do and wherever you will spend it! John

[aubergine99]

Hi John,

Good work! Referring to your two previous posts here, some great noticing, John.

I can see from what you say that you do not see an ‘I’ that is separate from awareness – yes, how could there be anything outside it?

I need more clarification though. What about an ‘I’ that is not separate from awareness – is there awareness of an independent entity that does, thinks or feels? Do you see one? What does ‘I’ point to now, at this stage of the enquiry? Please answer fully.

Nothing is constant except the one thing that is not a thing and that is what I am.

Do you really know what you are and have you found this looking in DE or is this a belief, John? LOOK!

Have a lovely Christmas and get back to me when you can.

Warmest wishes, Brigitte

[John LB]

Hello Brigitte,

Happy New Year. I hope that you had a nice time – Germany was fine but I ended up with bronchitis (often happens in winter). I have taken quite a bit of time out exploring experience over Christmas and being relatively still has helped greatly. I thank you for giving me the time to respond.

I need more clarification though. What about an ‘I’ that is not separate from awareness – is there awareness of an independent entity that does, thinks or feels? Do you see one? What does ‘I’ point to now, at this stage of the enquiry? Please answer fully.

An I that is not separate from awareness. I have looked and gone back over all the questions again and consistently found nothing. An entity that does thinks or feels…. In all of these ‘things’ taken as the dual structure of

I – experience – object

The only part the ONLY part of this is the experience, in the middle as it were. But its not in the middle it is all there is. It is lovely how subtle and yet powerful massive and just flippin obvious this now is! I and the object create each other. DE shows neither I nor the object. Upon clear looking there is no indepenedent experience e.g. sound that is heard, joined to a subject (me) by an experience of hearing there is just the hearing. And what is that – just awareness – me. Even when the sound stops – the hearing which comprised ‘it’ is still there but just without content. In DE there is not even really hearing as separate from any of the other senses - not until some subtle attention / labelling (aka thought) says so. That is the amazingly subtle part - all experience is always all present even when apparently separated out by thought, its all still and always only present - its beautiful.

What does 'I' point to? This is really quite funny because the thought I is a reference. I say ‘I’ hundreds of times in a day , I have looked for these over Christmas and find that the thought I is just a reference. It is always accepted that it points to something. That acceptance is never challenged. But I can now see that it has even less reality than a spec of dust or the thought of an orange that I did in an earlier experiement. Bringing that back up I can think of ‘The orange thought experiment’ and that points to a few images and imaginings that seemed to be there at the original experiment. Although there was not a real orange present then and neither is there now – at least there was some form of reality to the thought. But now if I say what does I point to – I can not even form any kind of image / notion. This thing that I have been referencing for years and around which everything seems to revolve is a phantom. I am not even as real as an imaginary orange!!

Nothing is constant except the one thing that is not a thing and that is what I am.
Do you really know what you are and have you found this looking in DE or is this a belief, John? LOOK!

Have a lovely Christmas and get back to me when you can.

Again sorry it has taken such a time to get back to you.

Have looked long and hard and repeatedly and there is something that doesn’t change throughout all experience and I am that. The ‘I’ that I thought I was has even less reality than an imaginary orange!

This is not belief and the way I can test that is not only because I have found strong evidence to support it to become knowledge, but also the doubt that was there for a long time has just melted away. I am very familiar with doubt as I think I explained in earlier response. Belief and doubt are opposite sides of the same coin – if one is present then so is the other. If the issue is resolved positively then what is believed can be seen to be true and therefore knowledge (in which case doubt goes). IF resolved negatively then what was believed may be discarded and along with it the doubt about its truth because it is now known as false. I think for me that is what has actually happened here, repeated and gradually more powerful looking has melted away doubt. Its nice, its really nice.

The stickiness that I had been feeling around the 'challenging' situations has not magically disappeared but the discomfort is clearer, lasts a shorter time and doesn't seem to be 'owned' by anyone. Even 'ownership' itself seems a bit daft!

Best wishes

John

[aubergine99]

Hi John,

Happy New Year to you too. Glad you enjoyed your hols despite the sickness.

Thanks for your reply and pleased to see you are back. I was beginning to think you had given up!

Yes, it is beautiful and amazing! Lovely descriptions, John. I can see you have been looking and there is more clarity.

An entity that does thinks or feels…. In all of these ‘things’ taken as the dual structure of

I – experience – object

The only part the ONLY part of this is the experience, in the middle as it were. But its not in the middle it is all there is. It is lovely how subtle and yet powerful massive and just flippin obvious this now is!

What does 'I' point to? This is really quite funny because the thought I is a reference. I say ‘I’ hundreds of times in a day , I have looked for these over Christmas and find that the thought I is just a reference. It is always accepted that it points to something. That acceptance is never challenged. This thing that I have been referencing for years and around which everything seems to revolve is a phantom. I am not even as real as an imaginary orange!!

You are getting so close now but your next quote is drifting into concepts. Stop this. I don’t want any more stories from now on, John. Just reporting from DE will bring the finishing line into view.

Have looked long and hard and repeatedly and there is something that doesn’t change throughout all experience and I am that. The ‘I’ that I thought I was has even less reality than an imaginary orange.

Also:

Upon clear looking there is no independent experience e.g. sound that is heard, joined to a subject (me) by an experience of hearing there is just the hearing. And what is that – just awareness – me.

Notice the phrases I have emboldened above. This is thought story (belief) about what you think you now are as opposed to what you thought you were earlier in this enquiry. Nothing wrong with the story as such but, where is this ‘I am that’ in DE to be found? No need for concepts at all to see the reality right here. Only looking is necessary.

Earlier in your post you clearly saw there is only experience, no subject nor object. Where does ‘I’ figure then?

Please look again and refrain from storytelling.

Once I see more clarity in your answer to this post, you may like to revisit the final questions and consider whether you want to tackle any of them again.

Warm wishes
Brigitte

[John LB]

Dear Brigitte,

Thank you for your reply.

can you leave this with me for a few days?

Yours warmly

John

[John LB]

Dear Brigitte,

I hope that you are well - just checking in - I've been travelling quite a lot lately and have been reflecting and digging - not finished yet: sorry for being slow! Hopefully I'll be in touch at the weekend.

Love and best wishes,

John

[aubergine99]

Hi John,

Thanks for keeping me posted. Look forward to your reply.

Brigitte x

[John LB]

Dear Brigitte,

Notice the phrases I have emboldened above. This is thought story (belief) about what you think you now are as opposed to what you thought you were earlier in this enquiry. Nothing wrong with the story as such but, where is this ‘I am that’ in DE to be found? No need for concepts at all to see the reality right here. Only looking is necessary.

I can see that I was using the term ‘I’ or me in the sense referred to by the great sages like Nisargardatta or Ramana i.e. non personal identity. In that sense they were using a word and it was being used on their terms. I am assuming I know what they meant - it is not for me to assume to do that, and that is not what you were asking for either! Enthusiasm I guess! I see the error in this. To be succinct the job in hand here as you put it:

Earlier in your post you clearly saw there is only experience, no subject nor object. Where does ‘I’ figure then?

I don’t know what to say other than that there is just nothing to say. I can not say a single word that is true about where ‘I’ figures. Even to say that “I can not…” is a concession to linguistic convention but we are stuck with that unless we start sounding daft and unnatural.

‘I’ is simply not to be found. I noticed this today – hours working away on a report and spreadsheet. On reflection towards the end of the day – all this work just happened. There was neither an ‘I’ causing it to be done, nor an ‘I’ present whilst it was done nor an ‘I’ doing it. Even when apparent 'decisions' were to be made there was discussion, there was logic but these just flowed. Its all rather light.

The 'I' that was being looked for and found absent, was the object referred to by the word ‘I’. Problem is, is that the object is obscure, always in the shadow always assumed never seen. And like a shadow, ceases to exist when a light is shined on it. At its very best, the strongest that ‘I’ becomes is a very loosely apprehended sense of ‘me’ with wants desires, fears, history, intentions, body characteristics skills etc. When looked for it is never found and it is strongly suspected that it is constructed rather than apprehended.

Sitting here right now, where is the I? In DE there are colours (which can be called the computer screen), sensation of tingling/pressure (which can be called ‘sitting on chair’), feint taste (which can be called ‘the remains of dinner’). There is thinking arising as images and subvocalized words. That is it…. No I. Period.

It is so familiar almost to the point of not worth commenting on ut at the same time profound: We have the bizarre and comical fact that an entity that was assumed to be real and never properly looked for was found upon proper looking to be assumed and unreal: and this makes perfect familiar sense.

Thank you B

John