Guide for a Buddhist requested.

[phoenix]

Warm Hello Smudge!

"so from DIRECT EXPERIENCE answer the following, really look deeply:

Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
Ok, From Direct Experience…There is no I to be the thinker of thoughts

Can YOU choose to think a thought?This is harder – that is I don’t feel it is as strong of a Direct experience
I cannot choose to think a thought. Thoughts I do not choose come, and thoughts that I think I am choosing do not stay. If I try to “choose” to have loving kindness thoughts towards someone who has done ill to me, the thoughts do not manifest as I wish. And if “I” “choose” to have a thought…where is the thought that “I am choosing” arise from? Not me. There is no me for it to arise from. There is no choosing from that which does not exist. So choosing also does not exist.

"does the body experience sensations and thoughts?"

This is harder yet. When I really look at it, it seems that there are only thoughts and sensations passing through. Through what? Actually, it appears that the body itself is just sensations and thoughts. No Body. Just an Ever-changing "Display".

That's it for now. Need to "let the story go" even more to Directly Experience.

Love and Light,
Phoenix

[smudge]

Hi Phoenix,

Lovely reading you here, I sense a shift. It may be semantics so please humour me and answer the below in the moment:

I don’t feel it is as strong of a Direct experience

Where is this I that isn't feeling a strong experience?

I cannot choose to think a thought.

Where is this I that cannot choose a thought?

Can a thought DO anything?

it seems that there are only thoughts and sensations passing through. Through what? Actually, it appears that the body itself is just sensations and thoughts. No Body. Just an Ever-changing "Display".

Beautiful!

Need to "let the story go" even more to Directly Experience.

Story is story. Who chooses to let it go and is it even possible?
But also yes, after seeing through the illusion of self re investigation happens when the story feels convincing again.

Spend time looking deeply so there is no doubt at what is or is not being seen.

Warmest wishes
Smudge x

[phoenix]

Spend time looking deeply so there is no doubt at what is or is not being seen.

Where is this I that cannot choose a thought?

Can a thought DO anything?

Hi Smudge,
I'v had the day off and time to contemplate a bit more.

Bear with me as I try the quote function again )

Where is this I that isn't feeling a strong experience?

This I is what there is when not in the present. In the present, there is no "I". I is a memory, a label. If I is present there is no Direct Experience. So when this was contemplated, "I" was creating a story that covered Direct Experience.

after seeing through the illusion of self re investigation happens when the story feels convincing again.

That seems to be happening now!

Where is this I that cannot choose a thought?

Can a thought DO anything?

The I is not existent. It cannot be found.
Initially, it seems a thought can form an emotion. But that is not correct. An emotion may be consequential to a thought. But the thought does not make the emotion. So a thought cannot DO anything other than arise and pass away.

Story is story. Who chooses to let it go and is it even possible?

There is no Who to choose to let it go. There is no choosing. Technically then, it would not be possible to let it go...BUT if there is Direct Experience, then the story is eradicated. This seems to be what is referred to when saying "letting go."

Spend time looking deeply so there is no doubt at what is or is not being seen.

At the time it seemed there was no doubt. But writing this questions arise. Because writing this is based on a memory of an experience earlier today.

Oops the quotes got mixed in order. Hope it makes sense.
Metta,
Phoenix

[smudge]

Hi Phoenix,

This I is what there is when not in the present. In the present, there is no "I". I is a memory, a label. If I is present there is no Direct Experience. So when this was contemplated, "I" was creating a story that covered Direct Experience.

Really take time to look for this I you refer to. I hear you say there is none and then you seem to 'believe' there is still. Is it true that there is an I when not in the present. Is there anything other than the present. LOOK! Right now can you find a past or a future, or is that more stories?

Stories carry on, is this really evidence of an I? or is it that stories about an I continue. Does re investigation mean I has returned?? Look and tell me what you find.

Well done you are getting the quote function.

Warm wishes, keep looking at whats actually going on.
Smudge x

[phoenix]

Hello Dear Smudge,
Apologies. Today has been a terrible day. Splitting headache. Difficulty seeing. Will write tomorrow.
Thank-you for your response. Have been thinking about it throughout the day, but now cannot remember it.
All the best,
Phoenix

[smudge]

I am sorry to hear you have been unwell and hope you are ready to continue, it is important to keep to momentumn up. Are you still burning for truth? In Buddhist language this needs Virya.

Have been thinking about it throughout the day, but now cannot remember it

Before you answer the questions from my last post read this.Notice how each thought creates a Me as part of that thought, so there are as many Me’s as there are thoughts. You have seen that there is no ‘Me’ outside the thought itself doing the thinking. As each thought comes, you can clearly see ‘a’ Me is created as part of it – and it is gone just as quickly. The ‘me’ is in the thought, not behind it!

Thinking to find the illusion of self will not work, LOOKING alone will.

Look forward to hearing
Smudge x

[phoenix]

Good Day Smudge,
Thanks for the Virya pep talk. I understand that.

Notice how each thought creates a Me as part of that thought, so there are as many Me’s as there are thoughts. You have seen that there is no ‘Me’ outside the thought itself doing the thinking. As each thought comes, you can clearly see ‘a’ Me is created as part of it – and it is gone just as quickly. The ‘me’ is in the thought, not behind it!

This is a beautiful statement. Have been thinking about "the 'me' is in the thought and not behind it" ...that is very brilliant. I got it.

This I is what there is when not in the present. In the present, there is no "I". I is a memory, a label. If I is present there is no Direct Experience. So when this was contemplated, "I" was creating a story that covered Direct Experience.

Really take time to look for this I you refer to. I hear you say there is none and then you seem to 'believe' there is still. Is it true that there is an I when not in the present. Is there anything other than the present. LOOK! Right now can you find a past or a future, or is that more stories?

I think my wording was not so good for this previous statement. I can find no I in past, present or future. These are just thoughts (divided into memories and imagination and imagination of memories). What the statement was attempting to say is that Direct Experience can occur ONLY in the present. But if the story of "I" takes hold, then it is impossible to be truly present and then impossible to have direct experience. There can be no thoughts of I during Direct Experience. As soon as there is then we are already removed from Direct Experience. That was not to say that there is an "I" in the past or future. Its just impossible to have Direct Experience in thoughts of the past or future. Because those are just stories. Each moment there is only the present, and if the story of "I" is created in that moment, then Direct Experience is removed.

Have a good day. I have to use virya to get through mine. Blazing headache still here. )
All the best,
Phoenix

[smudge]

Dear Phoenix,

Have been thinking about "the 'me'

This is not a concept to understand, only LOOK!

But if the story of "I" takes hold...

Can story DO anything? LOOK!

There can be no thoughts of I during Direct Experience

Really? LOOK again.

Keep going and keep it real, drop concepts.
Remember how to LOOK. The fig experiment and the writing exercise can remind you how.

Hoping your head is feeling better,
Vajralila

[phoenix]

Hello Smudge!

Before you answer the questions from my last post read this.Notice how each thought creates a Me as part of that thought, so there are as many Me’s as there are thoughts. You have seen that there is no ‘Me’ outside the thought itself doing the thinking. As each thought comes, you can clearly see ‘a’ Me is created as part of it – and it is gone just as quickly. The ‘me’ is in the thought, not behind it!

This is not a concept to understand, only LOOK!

Not sure how to Look at this other than what I was doing: Directly looking at thoughts as they arise and pass away. Noting that "me" is separate in each thought. Noting the body is only sensations and thoughts. Noting thoughts arising and seeing "me" in those thoughts.
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Can story DO anything? LOOK!

When Looking at the story - see many thoughts that arise and create a story. See/feel emotions reacting to the story. But the story does Not Do anything, other than arise and pass away as thoughts.
If "I" get carried away in those thoughts, rather than Looking at them arising and passing; then they create a story which consolidates the "I." If I realize " story as story" then it does Not Do anything.

There can be no thoughts of I during Direct Experience

Really? LOOK again.

Looked, Looking and Looking again. Maybe I am missing something? But in Direct experience, do not experience the "I". As soon as the thought "I am experiencing...." then it is one step away from the Direct Experience. As soon as a thought "My hand/foot/head/friend...etc" then it seems there is not Direct Experience any longer. Please share with me what I am missing here.
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Thanks for wishing me well. Minor migraine. Think it will go tomorrow. (hopefully)
Metta
phoenix

ps Not sure why the highlighting of colours did not come out right!

[smudge]

Hi Phoenix,

Directly looking at thoughts as they arise and pass away

Yes, brilliant, thats it.

You say "Noting" number of times. This is thoughts labelling. Thoughts are a labelling machine. It seems you identify strongly with this labelling machine. This is unsurprising as years living and being born into a world that colludes that when the labelling machine labels an I onto everything, it is believed to be true...And, do forms, thoughts, sensations and feelings arise still if the labelling machine doesn't label them? Spend time on this today keep looking to find out for sure.

If "I" get carried away in those thoughts, rather than Looking at them arising and passing; then they create a story which consolidates the "I." If I realize " story as story" then it does Not Do anything.

The I label has a lot of habit behind it, it is unlikely to just go away, but it doesn't need to be believed.

Are stories able to DO something if 'you' don't realise them? Sounds like quite a pressure on YOU to go around realising, reminds me of blind mans bluff. Do you know that game?

Sorry if I overdid the look instructions! I see now that this could be buying into the blind mans bluff game. The truth is the truth weather you look or not, the vidid display is full of forms, feelings, thoughts, sensations, volitions just doing there thing, life lifes, its all just happening, with OR without the labelling machine.

Look forward to hearing
Smudge x

[phoenix]

Hello Dear Smudge,
Thanks for the apology on the Look instructions. I understand your wanting to help and emphatically trying to point me in the right direction. You are right, I do need to Look: )
I don't know Blind Man's Bluff so looked it up on the internet. I'm not sure I understand the analogy.

I'm not sure what other term to use other than "noting"...perhaps "observing, experiencing, watching, looking, seeing" etc. These are all labels that are difficult to eliminate when sharing experience.

Trying to use the quote function here..But don't know whats wrong with it/me tonight.

You asked, "...And, do forms, thoughts, sensations and feelings arise still if the labelling machine doesn't label them? "
Yes they do. Here are examples explored today: If a cat is to feel hunger, it is the same sensation as a human hunger. But the cat doesn't have the ability to use language to label it such.
Forms arise when we are infants but we have no label for them at the time. Infants are always directly expressing their feelings without the label. For example: if Hungry then cry. If tired then cry. If happy then laugh. We label it "cry" and "laugh," but the baby is unable to do this. If we have extreme pain we react with the same immediate response, skipping over the label and directly scream (in anguish or what not).
Some things also do not have a label applied to them and yet they exist. For example, "Gravity" - before there was no label for it and yet people knew not to jump off of a cliff. Oh, gone off tangent!
but yes forms, thoughts, sensations and feelings arise even if the labeling machine doesn't label them.

Are stories able to DO something if 'you' don't realise them?

Looking at this now. It seems not. Stories are thoughts. Many thoughts strung together. Thoughts can not do anything other than arise and pass. So it appears that stories can not do anything either.

Have a good day!
Phoenix

[smudge]

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for your answers.The metaphor was meant to mean that it seems like you are looking to spot those pesky thoughts that stop YOU experiencing. Like 'theres one and theres another one, seen you'. Thoughts/stories/labelling is part of the display, once through the gate they carry on and theres more to discover.

For now, lets bring this is from a different angle. Do this a few times, again its not a thinking exercise its literally a seeing exercise. Report back. x

POINTING

To see Who you really are, carry out the following experiment.

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them. (The following images are a guide only -- it's imperative to actually DO the experiment.)

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see my face, I find no colour or shape here. I find boundless capacity or awareness this side of my pointing finger. This capacity is empty, clear, transparent. It is self-evidently awake, aware.

my finger, my view of the scene beyond, sounds, feelings…

What do you find? Are you also looking out of this wide-open, crystal clear, awareness?

[phoenix]

Hello Smudge,
I tried this this morning, during the day and tonight. A couple of times felt an understanding was born during the day. but now...Nothing.
It was interesting as I pointed my finger around the room. I couldn't believe how many things I had and they all seemed one dimensional. Just forms that I was not attached to at the moment, but had my consciousness attached to. They were taking up space in my consciousness. I know that was not the point of this exercise but it was something different than I expected.
and when I pointed to my face. Just saw darkness. No color or shape. Nothing exciting. Later in the day when I was riding my bike, I remembered to do this exercise. I had been extremely happy at the moment and had treated some others with kindness shortly before. And when I looked inward at myself it was a jubilous expanse. No- A boundaries. No form. But joyful. "Looking" found not just an absence of form but a feeling...Whatever I am trying to express right now is not being expressed properly in words. Not sure how to express it. I will leave that sentence there so it can be considered later.
Tonight when pointing, things have seemingly returned to a more solid form and there is nothing of interest to say. Other than at one point I pointed to the mirror and at my image in it. And I was aware that it was empty of being. Just a form, 2 dimensional only. And when I pointed back at my face it just seemed there was space.
Thanks for this lovely exercise,
Phoenix

[smudge]

Hi Phoenix,

I fell very excited to read the following :-))

And when I looked inward at myself it was a jubilous expanse. No- A boundaries. No form. But joyful. "Looking" found not just an absence of form but a feeling....And when I pointed back at my face it just seemed there was space.

Its so simple isn't it, story of a face but experience of no face, in fact experience of as you say, space! This is it! Beautiful!

Take this further, do this and in the here and now type what the experience is:
Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

Cant wait to hear! x

[phoenix]

Thanks for the positive feedback Smudge!
My experience now when pointing out at the world and back at me.............
That was very strange!
At first it was boring. Nothing happened. The world was as I see the world. And when I pointed back at me it seemed mechanical. Did it repeatedly. And then the external world seemed to be less solid, but maybe that was imagination. And then there was a shift in perception and when I pointed at myself again
I experienced space. Brought myself back to looking at my finger pointing outward and wondered how that could be.
How could space be pointing out? Really whose finger could that be? It was a paradox, really an impossibility.


I am doing this exercise again right now


I am not clear. But it seems that if my face is space, then everything else I am pointing to also is.

Love and light,
Phoenix[/color]