Seeking a Guide

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill,

Is there a sticking point?
Other than expectations?

Is there a sticking point? Not sure I understand this question...could you elaborate please.
There is an expectation of having a recognition of onesness.

Is there a gap between the perceiver of thoughts - thoughts and thinking - or is there just one process that we call thinking?

I can't find a gap between the perceiving of thoughts and thinking. The thoughts and perception of thinking seem to be one. Without thoughts there is still this knowingness of no thoughts.

Test it with a sound. Stop everything for two minutes and listen intently to all sounds that are present. Is there a hearer of sounds, separate from hearing and the heard? Where does hearing happen? Listen to distant sounds. Where is the hearer then? With closed eyes, check if there is a line between here and there. Can it be defined?

Stopped everything and listen to the sounds present. I could not find a hearer of sounds, only sounds. I could not find any separation from hearing and the heard, they seem to be one. I have no idea where hearing happens, can't find location. The thought arose " the ears", but I am not these ears.
When listening to distant sounds, the sounds although they are different and at different locations they seem to appear together without any dividing lines as if the sounds were one.

What is happening in this moment? Take a minute and LOOK. With your five senses, what do you experience? Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, even thoughts. Just list up what there is.... don't draw conclusions.

In this moment, there are sounds heard. Sensations of pressure on my nose from glasses. Seeing is happening, movement of fingers on the keyboard. Thoughts appearing. Feeling of pressure on the body from sitting on the sofa. Sleepy feelings arising.
Body feels cold sensations. Hands rubbing together for warmth.

When smelling an object, what is real about the sense of smell? When does it start, and when does it end? Is there a smeller?

When smelling odors. The only thing that is real about it is the sense of smell itself, It starts when it starts and ends when it ends. Is there a smeller? The thing that comes up is the body/nose is the smeller, but when eyes are closed there is no smeller. When eyes are closed it seems easier to clearly express what is being experienced.

Do you SEE that there is no me?
Can you SEE a me anywhere?
If you LOOK, is there one here?

Do you SEE that there is no me? I see that the me I thought I was..this "Paula" character is a story..looking back in memory thoughts I can see how they linked together. With or without the story appearing I exist. Sometimes there are thoughts that I'm the body, but this cannot be. Having OBE has shown me this is not possible. Yet there is a feeling of being in a body..

Can you SEE a me anywhere? NO, I cannot see a me anywhere.
If you look, is there one here?
When I look for a me all I find is this body/body senses and a knowingness of experience.

I will continue to look throughout the day.
Thank you Bill,
<3 Paula

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill, Just going over your questions.
D

o you SEE that there is no me?
Can you SEE a me anywhere?
If you LOOK, is there one here?

Bill, I keep looking for this "I" and can't find anything other then the thought "I" that points to this body. When I look there are only thoughts, sensations, feelings. Yet this "no me" thing hasn't clicked! When I awoke this morning, from a night of awakening to rushing fearful thoughts which caused many contractions, it feels like I am this person experiencing these feelings. When thoughts slow done and there is more space I feel clear and able to see what is not there. Thoughts appear "why can't I see"? but this "I" is never going to get it because it doesn't exist..

I went through thoughts of when this body was a baby without thought and language, I could imagine the baby to be pure knowing and sensing, not feeling any separation from experience. The only thing that was added into the mix was the learning of language, so this pure knowing is always there, right there along with the thoughts and language that were learned, this intelligence makes learning possible. The suffering must be the belief in the language and the beliefs of the thoughts that appear. I see when I just observe thought without engaging or judging they fall away and just flow. When there is a stickiness to them all focus goes to the thought causing contractions and senseless suffering.
I will continue to look for the "I" in every day activities until this clicks!!!

Namaste
Paula

[Bill]

Hi Paula

With or without the story appearing I exist. Sometimes there are thoughts that I'm the body, but this cannot be. Having OBE has shown me this is not possible. Yet there is a feeling of being in a body..

Is there a 'you' that exists and can be found anywhere concrete?

OBE are something that happens... are they somehow more 'real' than this moment now?


Just relax today and let go of this for a little while...
For the time being, just look at how feelings, thoughts and labels show up.
Don't make the mistake of trying to change what is.
Please don't try to be "not me."
The "me" you are talking about doesn't exist anyway.

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill,

What I meant was with or without the story there is an awareness a knowingness that is always there, not a "me". I needed to clarify that statement. I realize that OBE are just experiences that happen, these experiences can't happen to a body or person, it is the essence of this manifestation.
I will relax and watch today. Feeling a bit frustrated.

Thanks Bill

[Bill]

Hi Paula.... frustration happens.. its OK.
I will just keep pointing... sometimes there can be difficulty in just letting go and seeing things as they are.
We're so used to managing, planning and controlling our supposed destiny that something as outrageous as 'there is no I' brings up great resistance internally. The mind says "No! That can't be. Of course there is a me." Notice any resistance coming up and acknowledge it. Fear comes up to protect the I. Its doing its job. If any of this is happening just notice it.
Paula - was there ever a separate I / me in charge of situations? Can this me come and go?

What is real is what is happening right now. Most everything else is imagined.
We've seen that I is only a thought and can't be found anywhere.
Can a thought think? Can a thought really do anything?

There may or may not be a click.
For many this is what is described but for many other people it comes on gradually.
All we're looking for is to see everyday normal life as it is.. pre-story if you will.
The story is there to jump into and we can't help but be in in, but it also can be SEEN.

This is what has also been here your whole life, it's really right under our noses
but we haven't seen it as we have been looking for something more substantial.
It could be summed up as simple as this: "There's no I, there is just what is going on here and now."

Take a simple and easy LOOK.
Is there an I to be found?
Now?
Was there ever?

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill,

I can't say I see resistance, although the mind has become more active and thoughts have come up about not being able to get this insight to really click...which might be the resistance itself. Continuing to watch how the mind works, it labels and judges everything. Learning to watch without judging the judging thoughts is amusing!

I continue to watch the movements of the body and can see it is all automatic, there is no thought to how things get done, hearing happens, seeing happens, sensations are felt, movements happens, there really is no effort, it's like life is effortless! the only 'I' to be found is a thought. I also noticed that when the 'I' thought comes up with stories there is resistance to the thought stories, as if it shouldn't be there because of this inquiry, like there is some expectation around how things should be. Now I understand when you said this is unlike anything you might expect. The Stories and self referencing may or may not go on, it doesn't matter. Just seeing through the stories and self referencing is what is needed.

Paula - was there ever a separate I / me in charge of situations? Can this me come and go?

Looking for this "I" which can't be found in this moment tells me if it's not here now, it never was here. A 'me' can't come and go, if this 'I' were there it would be obvious in DE. The me I thought I was, was just a thought, a dream so to speak, lived out in imagination.

Can a thought think? Can a thought really do anything?

All a thought can do is appear for a moment in experience, it has NO power to do anything on its own...amazing how a thought that is insubstantial and appears for a split second can cause so much suffering. A thought is nothing but a pattern appearing and disappearing.

There may or may not be a click.
For many this is what is described but for many other people it comes on gradually.
All we're looking for is to see everyday normal life as it is.. pre-story if you will.
The story is there to jump into and we can't help but be in in, but it also can be SEEN.

This is what has also been here your whole life, it's really right under our noses
but we haven't seen it as we have been looking for something more substantial.
It could be summed up as simple as this: "There's no I, there is just what is going on here and now."

Looking at everyday life per-story. Removing the labels, ideas and concepts all that remains is seeing, feeling, sensing, etc. It was always here as it is, no separation just this amazing dance of life flowing freely. Haven't a clue what anything is without labels, just life as it is..and I'm ok with really not knowing. This habit of attention going to thoughts and images are like you said, just imagination, it's like life is never seen for what it truly is, so much attention goes to the imaginary day dreams that appear instead of what is right here, right now..life as it is, just this.

This is what has also been here your whole life, it's really right under our noses
but we haven't seen it as we have been looking for something more substantial.

It could be summed up as simple as this: "There's no I, there is just what is going on here and now."

It's funny Bill, how we look for something more substantial ,and the whole time we are looking at the insubstantial.

Take a simple and easy LOOK.
Is there an I to be found?
Now?
Was there ever?

Looking into this moment all there is is body movements, sensations, thoughts appearing, seeing happening, hearing happening. Can't find an 'I'! Since I am unable to find this 'I' now, it's safe to say it never was here. It's always been just a thought. Not sure if this is just intellectual knowing, nothing clicked, nothing has changed.
Perhaps it is a gradual knowing?

Namaste,
Paula

[Bill]

Paula - your answers are so clear. So lucid. I don't usually see this kind of understanding, unless there has been a SEEING. I know you might feel like there should be something different felt. A shift if you will.
Please tell me if you have seen through this illusion of the self. I'm hearing a definite 'yes' in your answers, but need your direct feedback. Give me your gut feeling. Don't worry about a click.

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill,

I don't know if I have seen through the illusion or not and the reason is the reactivity and patterns still cause disturbances. There is an idea or expectation that the cause of suffering is directly related to the belief in this separate self, so if one has seen through this illusion the suffering should end. I think there is some idea surrounding how losing the illusion affect the personal patterns, creating change.
My gut feeling is there is some shift, but I can't pin point exactly what it is? There is some doubt in my clarity. I wonder if what I have written could be learned? I look in DE for an I and it is always just a thought. I know this seeing through the illusion of the 'I' is different for each pattern. Bill in all honesty, I'm just now sure?

[Bill]

I don't know if I have seen through the illusion or not and the reason is the reactivity and patterns still cause disturbances. There is an idea or expectation that the cause of suffering is directly related to the belief in this separate self, so if one has seen through this illusion the suffering should end. I think there is some idea surrounding how losing the illusion affect the personal patterns, creating change.

Hi Paula....This is one of the great myths about awakening that just doesn't translate out in the real world.
We all have conditioning that we've had for many years and it just does not drop away upon seeing that the self is an illusion. Nothing changes really except our perception. We see what is happening here and now. I can say for me I've had very strong feelings after seeing and they have not all been on what you'd call the positive side. Life still goes on.
I've heard some say the reactivity is less... and others says no difference. There can be a dropping away of some of this stuff we've been carrying but there's really nothing that can be done to make it happen... Maybe the only thing and is just SEEING it... acknowledging it. You will still get angry, jealous, envious and any other emotion like that.
There is nothing that needs to happen. Expecting some grand realization gets in the way of real seeing. Everything already is as it always is.

My gut feeling is there is some shift, but I can't pin point exactly what it is? There is some doubt in my clarity. I wonder if what I have written could be learned? I look in DE for an I and it is always just a thought. I know this seeing through the illusion of the 'I' is different for each pattern. Bill in all honesty, I'm just now sure?

Yes, this could be learned.. When we talk of SEEING though, we're not meaning 'understanding' in the conventional sense of the word. A literal seeing is what we mean.

Some other things I found for you on expectations:

*Don't look to "liberated others" to define your own knowing. Everyone is different. With some there is a huge "pop" (like a champagne cork), and with others a soft pop. In the end, the knowing that you have truly seen through self is truly yours. Otherwise this would be persuasion, not investigation.

*This work does not aim to trigger certain types of altered states of consciousness. These may happen (or not), yet they are entirely beside the point. What these conversations are intended to do is invite you to simply look directly at what is already the case right now, regardless of whatever state of consciousness may be happening.

*The wish for a final "done" is - surprise - a story of the final carrot to be reached, a reason for the fictional "I" to try to get "somewhere." Everything is constantly changing, moving, and interacting. There is no "done" in the real world.

*In awakening, the belief in a solid, controlling self is dropped. All of a sudden it is seen there really wasn't anything to do, because nothing could be done. It is the realizing that there is nothing to realize. Thoughts arise, the body acts, and life is lived, but it is not happening to anyone.

- - -

This can't be learned, only experienced. If you don't feel sure we will try and find out where and what you're not sure about. If you knew, what would it be? What aren't you sure about?

Let's take a look at overall expectations again, see if we can uncover what's there.

What do you expect from this process.

What kind of resistance to this is coming up if any?

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill,

Thank you for going into further details in your response. Yesterday was a day of reactivity around a certain challenging situation. I see that the suffering that occurred was more about judging the reactivity than the reactivity itself. This is probably the expectation, thinking that life somehow changes, there are some beliefs that a Guru/master no longer feels anger, sadness etc. This was pick up through years of reading spiritual books. I had some insight this morning upon awakening as I lay in bed listening to the sounds without thought, I could see that no separation existed. It is only the thoughts that divide, and even that is only imaginary. In reality there can be no division.
I understand what you are saying here,seeing there is no one running the show is not an end to strong emotions, it's a knowing that those emotions don't belong to anyone! They are just happening and have always been happening to no one! and since there is no one here, that certainly puts the kabash on birth and death belief, so I could somehow understand a gradual deepening of knowing can happen over time as one observes life.

Watching the body and emotions come, there is clearly NO control..if there were some type of control it would be a total different experience. I see there is no control.

This can't be learned, only experienced. If you don't feel sure we will try and find out where and what you're not sure about. If you knew, what would it be? What aren't you sure about?

Let's take a look at overall expectations again, see if we can uncover what's there.

What do you expect from this process.

What kind of resistance to this is coming up if any?

If you knew, what would it be? What aren't you sure about? If I knew it would be like some big relief, which I feel a bit of today. What I'm not sure about is, damn I don't know! I'm unsure about being unsure! So silly.. Perhaps a nice Zen slap on the side of my head will do it!

What I expect from this process may be a big moment of wow! A moment of laughing hysterically at the simplicity of what has been right here has always been right here! It's truly just the mind looking for something it thinks should happen, this may be the resistance, this looking for more.

I see that the body moves without directions, it just does it all automatically. Nothing needs to be thought about as far as doing anything. Like this morning getting out of bed, there wasn't a thought "get out of bed, move your left leg out of the bed then your right, take a step forward. This is all automatic and learn. While watching and observing thoughts there is this knowingness that is aware and this is what I am and although while watching it may feel as though the thoughts are over here and the witness is somewhere else, this is not so, looking deeper reveals they arise together. I am experience experiencing life. Closing my eyes and wiggling my toes, there is just sensation, there is no toes felt at a different location like a foot! there is only a sensation as experience.

Thank you Bill for your patience. I can see that there were more expectations then I originally thought.

Namaste.
Paula

[Bill]

This is probably the expectation, thinking that life somehow changes, there are some beliefs that a Guru/master no longer feels anger, sadness etc.

What I expect from this process may be a big moment of wow! A moment of laughing hysterically at the simplicity of what has been right here has always been right here! It's truly just the mind looking for something it thinks should happen, this may be the resistance, this looking for more.

Yes.. we have been indoctrinated in this type of thinking that we have to sacrifice greatly, work long and hard and then just maybe we can SEE this and its going to be BIG when it happens. And that once the 'truth' is seen, we will always walk around serenely and never get mad and only eat organic food.. oh and everyone will love us all the time too :)
This could happen.... It could not too!

I had some insight this morning upon awakening as I lay in bed listening to the sounds without thought, I could see that no separation existed. It is only the thoughts that divide, and even that is only imaginary. In reality there can be no division.

I see that the body moves without directions, it just does it all automatically. Nothing needs to be thought about as far as doing anything. Like this morning getting out of bed, there wasn't a thought "get out of bed, move your left leg out of the bed then your right, take a step forward. This is all automatic and learn. While watching and observing thoughts there is this knowingness that is aware and this is what I am and although while watching it may feel as though the thoughts are over here and the witness is somewhere else, this is not so, looking deeper reveals they arise together. I am experience experiencing life. Closing my eyes and wiggling my toes, there is just sensation, there is no toes felt at a different location like a foot! there is only a sensation as experience.

Very nice what you've put down here..
no separation... no control... just life doing as it does and is.
Its really very simple.

- - - - -

See that what you are looking for, searching for is here, right now.
Its always been here. We just haven't noticed it.
We're always looking for something MORE.
LOOK. truly LOOK.
This moment, right now, is the one you've wanted your whole life.
There's nothing, absolutely nothing that needs to be changed
either on your insides, or in your outer circumstances.

The brain says no, No, NO! It can't be this simple.
Its got to be different than this, more flashy,
greater insight, more bliss, oneness.... and on and on and on.
So we overlook THIS precious moment in hopes of a better one.
Of course off in the future. That one that never comes.
This is the delusion. That this moment is not the one.
That THIS is not IT!
See this delusion. It has to be seen.

When you see it, truly SEE it, you can relax and know that this moment is the one.
It's just ordinary everyday life as it is. We don't have to hope for something better.
The seeking can stop. We can put all the books away. No more teachers are needed either.
There's nothing to learn really and we can't lose this either because whatever occurs on the
inside or outside, it is always still THIS.
We just have to stop and LOOK again to realize.

Paula - simply look at what's present right now? Is there a "you" that exists at all?

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill,

Sorry I was not able to write yesterday.

See that what you are looking for, searching for is here, right now.
Its always been here. We just haven't noticed it.
We're always looking for something MORE.
LOOK. truly LOOK.
This moment, right now, is the one you've wanted your whole life.
There's nothing, absolutely nothing that needs to be changed
either on your insides, or in your outer circumstances.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing that needs to be changed either on your insides, or in your outer circumstances. This sentence spoke to me. I could see how there was beliefs that behavior had to be different and that I was somehow not good enough or smart enough. Yesterday there was a lot of rushing thoughts, anxiety and so-called suffering. I looked for the ONE who was suffering, nothing is to be found in DE, nothing but thoughts arising and then sensations in the body. Somehow not finding brings attention to the present and the body relaxes and lets go of the stories. Throughout the many books I have read, the message that "nothing needs to change", has been a common quote, yet the seeker seems to think we need to be better in someway. The ego's doings always looking for it's next fix.

The brain says no, No, NO! It can't be this simple.
Its got to be different than this, more flashy,
greater insight, more bliss, oneness.... and on and on and on.
So we overlook THIS precious moment in hopes of a better one.
Of course off in the future. That one that never comes.
This is the delusion. That this moment is not the one.
That THIS is not IT!
See this delusion. It has to be seen.

Yes, the brain is looking for something more, like you say here, greater insight, more flashy. Something more than this! So this is it? I don't know whether to laugh or cry..

When you see it, truly SEE it, you can relax and know that this moment is the one.
It's just ordinary everyday life as it is. We don't have to hope for something better.
The seeking can stop. We can put all the books away. No more teachers are needed either.
There's nothing to learn really and we can't lose this either because whatever occurs on the
inside or outside, it is always still THIS.
We just have to stop and LOOK again to realize.

Paula - simply look at what's present right now? Is there a "you" that exists at all?

When I truly SEE it, the seeking can stop and I can relax. A thought arose, "now what will I do"? I have spent so much time reading and seeking for a moment that is already here and has always been here! It's funny in a sad sort of way, not sure that makes any sense.

Bill, I look to what is happening in this moment and all I find is what's happening in this moment and thoughts about what's happening in this moment! and I am aware of it all. What is present is a body sitting on a couch, typing is happening, sensations appear, pain is felt in the body. Seeing is happening, breathing is happening. Everything is being done without thought. Thoughts arise that have nothing to do with NOW. Thoughts arise as to why I can't get this? and I see it's just a thought. Yesterday as things came up, like fear..I looked to see what was behind it, couldn't find anything, I looked for the one that is fearful, couldn't find anything. There truly is nothing to be found..

I will continue to look..
Thank you Bill,
Namaste.

[Bill]

Hello Paula,

Happy Thanksgiving! Hope all is well for you and your family...

Yes, the brain is looking for something more, like you say here, greater insight, more flashy. Something more than this! So this is it? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.......

When I truly SEE it, the seeking can stop and I can relax. A thought arose, "now what will I do"? I have spent so much time reading and seeking for a moment that is already here and has always been here! It's funny in a sad sort of way, not sure that makes any sense.

It's really rather amazing to SEE this.
What has been sought for so long has always been here.
I think you can laugh and cry both. I have seen both...
We've had a few people laugh for days once this is SEEN
at the utter simplicity of it... and at our minds demanding it be so much more.

Now in any circumstance, any situation, in the past or in an imagined future - can there ever be a you which is not an idea, thought, or habit? In this very moment, is there a "you" which is not an idea or a thought? The truth is really simple and obvious. It takes a little courage to look, but once recognized it will become clear. Look in immediate experience. Is there a self, other than habitual thoughts of a self? Has there ever been anything but a story about you?

Now let's take another look at that koan we saw earlier...
what's your reaction to this now?

"Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple."

[paulagsell]

Good morning Bill,

"Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family! Thank you for guiding me along here. I will be back later to respond to your questions. Have a wonderful day!

Namaste,
Paula

[paulagsell]

Hi Bill,

Now in any circumstance, any situation, in the past or in an imagined future - can there ever be a you which is not an idea, thought, or habit?

No Bill, this "me" can only be a thought, idea and habit. The habit of self referencing may continue for a while, but I know that there is no "self" doing anything. When attention goes to the looking of life and this body movements, it is clear to see that there is no one instructing this body how to move. Everything just happens.

Look in immediate experience. Is there a self, other than habitual thoughts of a self? Has there ever been anything but a story about you?

Looking into the DE this self has always been just habitual thoughts of self referencing. A story. The self referencing thoughts still arise, but they seem less sticky. Although there were moments of attention going into the story with painful results. The knowing will somehow deepen over time. Attention continues to watch, and observe the thoughts and body, attention to going to DE as it is.

"Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple."

The "I" thought comes up a lot out of habit, but it has never been able to think or do anything. Thoughts just appear from patterns of conditioning that belong to no one. Removing all concepts and ideas and just looking at this DE, there is a seeing that nothing can truly be known. Everything seen is not the label that was made up and given to that particular object. Without labels nothing is separate. It is only language and assumptions that divide, mental constructs. No wonder being with nature is so pleasant. No divisions, assumptions, or labels..life just being as it is.

This self I thought myself to be is not there as a real entity. I cannot locate this self anywhere in direct experience. There is always, always this knowing of experience present. Although this knowing cannot be seen, it can be known and it is because of this knowing that the truth of no-self can be known.

Namaste,
Paula