Seeking Only TRUTH

[Xain]

I can't find anything other than the experience and the thoughts

Good.
Is there an 'I' finding stuff?
Or is this a thought too?

'I' is not a separate thing

So there is no separate 'I' - Is this clear?

It could mean that what's looking can't find what it's looking for because it IS what it's looking for.

That's a great suggestion.
Could it be that a real 'I' cannot be found outside of thoughts?
And that 'I' only ever exists in thought . . . ?
And that there is no real separate 'I'?

Without thought, what is 'I'?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

Is there an 'I' finding stuff?
Or is this a thought too?

Maybe I'm defining 'I' wrong? I keep looking for a separate 'I' and not finding it. But it doesn't seem like there is nothing, exactly. There is definitely thought, which constricts and limits, but thoughts seem to be occuring inside something bigger - in fact, they must be happening inside something bigger. Inside whatever it is that I can't find the edges of. If 'I' isn't separate from everything, but instead IS everything, then I'm finding 'I.' It's the limiting of it to my thoughts or awareness that makes it seem separate. Would it be right to say that I can find 'I' but that it's unlimited and therefore not separate from any thought and/or sense my awareness may lock in on?

'I' is not a separate thing
So there is no separate 'I' - Is this clear?

Yes

Could it be that a real 'I' cannot be found outside of thoughts?
And that 'I' only ever exists in thought . . . ?
And that there is no real separate 'I'?

Yes

Without thought, what is 'I'?

Without thought, 'I' is limitless/everything

[Xain]

But it doesn't seem like there is nothing, exactly.

I am pretty sure we have covered this, but who is saying that there is 'nothing' here?
Clearly something is here.
Confine yourself specifically and only to looking for a separate 'I' and not to resorting to mental analysis or speculation of what is or isn't here.

Maybe I'm defining 'I' wrong? I keep looking for a separate 'I' and not finding it.

Right, Ok.

Now without resorting to thinking and analysis, is there a separate 'I' here right now or not?
Can one be found?
Is the only one that CAN be found within thought?
If a separate, real 'I' isn't here now, Has there ever been a separate 'I'?

Would it be right to say that I can find 'I' but that it's unlimited and therefore not separate from any thought and/or sense my awareness may lock in on?

What 'I' can't find 'I'?
What 'I' is looking for 'I'? Stop thinking and LOOK!
Is there a separate 'I'? Or just thoughts . . .

Without thought, 'I' is limitless/everything

'Limitless/ everything' - This is a thought is it not?
Without thought, is there a seperate 'I' to be found ANYWHERE AT ALL IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?
LOOK!

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I am pretty sure we have covered this, but who is saying that there is 'nothing' here?

I don't know. Thoughts are involved. Does that mean thoughts are saying it? They seem to be both the cause and effect

Confine yourself specifically and only to looking for a separate 'I' and not to resorting to mental analysis or speculation of what is or isn't here.

It seems there's an 'I' that is endless. Thoughts and feelings seem to be within 'I,' but self-contained - like each thought is a tiny marble in an endless mass of marbles. There doesn't seem to any edges to the thoughts either, though. The thoughts do start and stop in time, though, while 'I' do not.

Now without resorting to thinking and analysis, is there a separate 'I' here right now or not?
Can one be found?
Is the only one that CAN be found within thought?
If a separate, real 'I' isn't here now, Has there ever been a separate 'I'?
What 'I' can't find 'I'?
What 'I' is looking for 'I'? Stop thinking and LOOK!
Is there a separate 'I'? Or just thoughts . . .
'Limitless/ everything' - This is a thought is it not?
Without thought, is there a seperate 'I' to be found ANYWHERE AT ALL IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?
LOOK!

I hope that I'm not frustrating you as much as I'm frustrating myself, but I don't know how to look without thought. When I think I just look, I immediately get a thought tells me that there is an 'I' here that is not separate, and there has never been. Without thought, I don't think I "have" anything - no me, no experience, no separation. Which is a thought, so it's circular. Maybe I just dn't know what looking is. It sounds different from thought, but they come together for me, right now.

[Xain]

I don't know. Thoughts are involved. Does that mean thoughts are saying it?

Rather than asking why not find out by looking into your experience.

Thoughts appear.What generates them, and where do they appear?
Is there an 'I' you can locate that is thinking thoughts, or are there just 'thoughts'?

. . . like each thought is a tiny marble in an endless mass of marbles

You are resorting to speculation and analysis of future and past thoughts and thinking here.
What is here right now?
You can see thousands of thoughts here right now? Or is this just a thought?

There might be a thought appearing. What 'I' generated it? What 'I' has this thought?
Or is 'I' itself just a thought?

The thoughts do start and stop in time, though, while 'I' do not.

Interesting. Please explain what you mean.
What 'I' have you successfully located that does not stop or start in time.
Describe that one fully to me as you see it now.
Or is this just a thought?

I hope that I'm not frustrating you as much as I'm frustrating myself, but I don't know how to look without thought.

Not at all.

How do you find something?
If I said to you there was a gorilla standing behind you what would you do?
How much thinking would be required and how long would you have to think to find out if there was a gorilla there?
Or would you just turn around and look to see if there was one there? No thinking at all?

Locate this separate 'I' right now - If there is one here, look and describe it to me.
If all that can be found is thoughts about an 'I', then there is no real 'I' here right now. Is there?

Without thought, I don't think I "have" anything - no me, no experience, no separation.

If there is an 'I' here right now that 'has' these things, describe that one to me as you find it in your experience.

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

If you don't mind, I'm going to start at the end, because maybe that'll illuminate what my conundrum is . . .

If I said to you there was a gorilla standing behind you what would you do?
How much thinking would be required and how long would you have to think to find out if there was a gorilla there?
Or would you just turn around and look to see if there was one there? No thinking at all?

I agree that I would just turn and look. But would I actually "see" without thinking? Wouldn't I have to use thought to identify it as a gorilla? Otherwise, it's just awareness.

Thoughts appear.What generates them, and where do they appear?
Is there an 'I' you can locate that is thinking thoughts, or are there just 'thoughts'?

What is here right now?
You can see thousands of thoughts here right now? Or is this just a thought?

There might be a thought appearing. What 'I' generated it? What 'I' has this thought?
Or is 'I' itself just a thought?

Thousands of thoughts would really be just one thought. 'I' itself is just a thought. Everything I see is just one thought. 'I' is a thought that is aware of other thoughts. 'I' is not separate from anything. 'I' contains the thoughts. No?

What 'I' have you successfully located that does not stop or start in time.
Describe that one fully to me as you see it now.
Or is this just a thought?

It's a thought. But the closest I can get to describing 'I' is to say that it is awareness, and I can't find a start or a stop to it, in any form. Awareness seems to be there whether I'm aware of it or not. That's all I ever find when I look for 'I' . . . awareness. Awareness even seems like it is what looking without thought would be. Just aware.

If there is an 'I' here right now that 'has' these things, describe that one to me as you find it in your experience.

There's not an 'I' here that has these things - there is an awareness of the thoughts about those things.

[Xain]

I agree that I would just turn and look. But would I actually "see" without thinking? Wouldn't I have to use thought to identify it as a gorilla? Otherwise, it's just awareness.

I don't know. Let's ponder that one.
Rather than 'Gorilla' let's take something obvious.
What 'I' here right now uses thought to identify this as writing on a screen? Describe that one to me.
Or is this just a thought?

Awareness seems to be there whether I'm aware of it or not.

Describe this 'I' to me as it appears right now in experience - The one that is sometimes aware of awareness, and sometimes not aware of awareness. What is that one?
Or is this just a thought?

If there is an 'I' here right now that 'has' these things, describe that one to me as you find it in your experience.

There's not an 'I' here that has these things - there is an awareness of the thoughts about those things.

So there is no separate 'I' here right now in any way shape or form?
Or is there? Can you find a separate 'I' other than a thought?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

What 'I' here right now uses thought to identify this as writing on a screen? Describe that one to me.
Or is this just a thought

?

It seems like it's whatever is on the receiving end of the signals from my eyes. It seems like it's something more than thought. It seems like thought is in 'it' though. It doesn't seem like it's anything really, although it contains the capacity for thought to exist. I don't get the feeling that it actually thinks, though. In that way, it's just a thought.

Describe this 'I' to me as it appears right now in experience - The one that is sometimes aware of awareness, and sometimes not aware of awareness. What is that one?
Or is this just a thought?

The 'I' is just a thought - or, at least, it's not separate from thought. It seems like thought and awareness are kind of intermingled, too, although I don't think that they're one and the same. It seems like either can direct/lead the other.

So there is no separate 'I' here right now in any way shape or form?
Or is there? Can you find a separate 'I' other than a thought?

I definitely cannot find an 'I' separate from thought. I can't even conceive of it - it suddenly occurs to me that it's like 'I' is the 'looking' and 'thought' is the 'seeing.'

[Gafith]

Hi Xain-

I just re-read our entire exchange, and got a completely new perspective on how locked up I've been. I've been working very hard to complicate this! So, let me state directly what I honestly know: there was/is/will be no 'I' that I can find with my senses. There are thoughts and awareness. That's all I can say honestly.

[Xain]

I just re-read our entire exchange, and got a completely new perspective on how locked up I've been.

This is good.
I didn't want to point it out to you (I wanted you to make the revelation for yourself).
You have been locked up in thought.
You appeared to be attempting to use a thought to justify another thought.

If 'I' is only a thought, then thought itself will continually reinforce itself.
Continuous thinking of the solution will make the 'I' thought continually appear will it not?

But look into this, and tell me honestly.
Is there an 'I' that had a choice NOT to be locked up?
Is there an 'I' that made a breakthrough (or could make a breakthrough)?
Or is it really true that the only 'I' that appears is in a thought?

Does all this just 'happen'. No doer. No controller. No chooser. No separate 'I'.
Really look into this. This is your enquiry.

Tell me honest what you think.
Tell me what is coming up for you now?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

You appeared to be attempting to use a thought to justify another thought.

I didn't realize it, but that's exactly what was happening.

Continuous thinking of the solution will make the 'I' thought continually appear will it not?

It will

But look into this, and tell me honestly.
Is there an 'I' that had a choice NOT to be locked up?

No.

Is there an 'I' that made a breakthrough (or could make a breakthrough)?

No.

Or is it really true that the only 'I' that appears is in a thought?

'I' only appears in thought.

Does all this just 'happen'. No doer. No controller. No chooser. No separate 'I'.
Really look into this. This is your enquiry.

I can say that all this just happens.

Tell me honest what you think.
Tell me what is coming up for you now?

There's a definite, if subtle, sense of relief from accepting this recognition and simplicity. However, I'm struggling with making the leap from realizing that all this just happens to . . . what does one who recognizes this do? Which is clearly a thought, which is just happening, and a thought makes an 'I.' In the absence of thought, and in the absence of 'I' does my body remain where it is until something just happens and it moves? Similarly, without thought and 'I', what does it mean to even have a question?

[Xain]

There's a definite, if subtle, sense of relief from accepting this recognition and simplicity.

That is a nice reply.
It IS this simple.
'I' is simply a thought - Reinforced by other thoughts.

I'm struggling with making the leap from realizing that all this just happens to . . . what does one who recognizes this do?

I know you realise the answer to this already, but . . .
Is there an 'I' that can do anything? Has there ever been an 'I' that could do anything?
Is there 'one who recognises this', in other words, a separate 'thing' you can find that has made a recognition?
Or is there just a recognition?

Thought . . . thought . . . thought . . . do you see? :-)

. . . and in the absence of 'I' does my body remain where it is until something just happens and it moves?

'My body' . . . is there an 'I' that owns 'a body'?
There does appear to be a thing called 'a body' appearing. Does it have an owner? Does it have a controller?

Experiment for yourself.
There is a body. It appears to move.
Does it remain where it is until something happens?
Look very deeply into this. Try to find the truth for yourself.

Similarly, without thought and 'I', what does it mean to even have a question?

The mind wants answer to all sorts of things, and appears to want 'meaning' for it all.

Questioning happens. Answers happen. Life happens.
Does it have to mean something?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I do see!! I see that when 'I' start trying to work through the implications of fully realizing/accepting that there is no 'I,' 'I' is doing some of its finest work of perpetuating itself. My words are the same as they would have been a week ago, or even yesterday, but the recognition level is completely different. Before, I couldn't see the Gate. Now, I see the Gate in all it's glory - it still looks very imposing, but there are brief moments when it fades. It still re-establishes itself quickly, but not quite as vividly. I know it doesn't exist. I know why I still see it. I wonder when it's disappearance will just happen . . . .

[Xain]

Before, I couldn't see the Gate. Now, I see the Gate in all it's glory - it still looks very imposing, but there are brief moments when it fades. It still re-establishes itself quickly, but not quite as vividly. I know it doesn't exist. I know why I still see it. I wonder when it's disappearance will just happen . . . .

Can you explain what you mean?

The 'Gate' is just a metaphor.
To see what 'I' is, is to realise that there is no 'I'.

Was there a real 'I' to begin with?
Has there ever been an 'I'?
Is there anything to disappear?

Xain ♥

[Gafith]

I can see that 'I' never has existed and never will. My 'Gate' is the responsibilities and goals that still exist. I understand that they're the result of thoughts that perpetuate a non-existent 'I'. So. I move back and forth between knowing there's no 'I' - when the gate fades - and being certain that I need to get up tomorrow morning to go to work so I can get money to pay for food, shelter, healthcare, etc. Which is when 'I' is perpetuating itself, and the Gate is there. I know it's not really there. I guess I understand, but don't yet KNOW that 'I' didn't get 'me' this far . . .