I would like a guide please

[kvotski]

Additional thoughts on habits. Physical dependence like smoking, chocolate and drugs are hard to break but mental habits can be easy once the error of our ways are seen. Once seen, the man in red suit is seen at a mall but recognized as joe rather than Santa.

Is the person in the sculptures Teresa or just clay or stone in a pleasing or provoking image?

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil

I'm going to think about these overnight & answer in the morning. I'm watching The Ipcress File & it's a bit too engrossing to try & think about a thinker as well ...

Teresa

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil,

Now can you find the thinker of thoughts that produces these images and the imaginary self?

If there is no thinker to be found, can there be a decision maker of your life? Recognizing that choices and decisions are also thoughts.

So, we are now left with experiences, of sensations, of thoughts (of real or unreal objects). Then look for the experiencer of these experiences? What is it? Is there one?

Success - I seem to have managed a coloured quote :)

The easy option, first thought, is to say there are thoughts & images so "I" have thought & created them.

Back to "there is creativity" ... Thoughts are responses to sensations or other thoughts. Different sensation leads to different thought. So no, I can't find a thinker, there are only responses to sensations & thoughts.

If there are only thoughts & sensations, what are emotions ?

I know that there is no decision maker, decisions are responses to conditions, ie thoughts & sensations.

So is there an experiencer. I've just reread the Direct experience article and that says we split experience into "me" and "out there", but that there is only experience. So, when I look what do I see ...

My hand touches my arm, I feel touch, these are words (thoughts) to describe the experience. The touch experience is pre thought, but is followed almost instantly by thoughts which label the touch & I've learnt to call those thoughts "me", but they're just thoughts.

I see movement, and green. My mind labels that sight as tree outside the window, & also has a thought "I can see a tree". That is just a thought. There is the tree outside the window, there is the eye seeing the tree and then there is the brain with impulses & chemicals flashing around that makes the thoughts that identify it & label it a tree. And the thoughts that say "I" am seeing the tree. All of that makes up the experience. When its autumn in a few weeks the tree will turn yellow & then brown, so the experience will be different.

I think all the bits have to be there for an experience. So it makes no sense to split it into experience and experiencer. Without the complete chain of object, sensation eg seeing, labelling, then thinking there is not experience. So there is no experiencer.

There is no "person" in the sculptures, they are a snapshot image of a part of "me", of a particular way of responding to a particular set of sensations & thoughts. When I look at them or touch them they evoke a response in me. They can also evoke a response in some other people. I guess what I would hope for in an image of no self would be something that would evoke a response showing the truth of no self. Interesting thought.

My son sometimes does Father Christmas for the children at his wife's church. I'm not sure how his very young children see him .... I'll ask him :)

That feels like enough thinking for one morning - I'm glad I didn't try to do this last night :)

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

Indeed you got the quote function just in time of completion.

As far as I can tell, you see the truth as well as most of us in this community. This is a hedged comment just in case there are depths of truth yet to unfold in the universe. But the key finding here which you too share is that there is no self, no thinker, no experiencer, no decision maker to be found in direct experience.

You asked about emotions. What do you think they are?

Love as defined by Wikipedia comes from the root Sanskrit word " leubh" meaning greed. Over millennia, did the greed for another person, object and god morph into what we exalt as love? Is hate not a conditioned response to an act or object? Is fear not just misunderstanding, looking at a rope and imagining it to be snake? Look and share.

Lastly your wisdom would benefit many who come to LU for clarity. If you are so inclined, I would like to ask you some final questions, put the answers to our community of guiding angels and furthers confirm your findings.

Well done.

[TeresaC]

Wow, thank you Sunil. I'm just eating lunch & will do a fuller response later.
Teresa xx

I've been spending the day enjoying just experiencing in my normal life - feels much more open :)

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil

Yes please ask the final questions, I'm happy to answer them as best I can.

I think emotions must be a mix of body sensations and thoughts. So if I'm alone in the house overnight I hear a noise. I then try & assign a meaning to it - is it a branch banging against the wall in the wind, or is it someone trying to break in. That then elicits a further body response of stomach churning, fast heartbeat with a thought that I need to listen more intensely in case there are more noises. So all that I label as fear - & get very scared !! so I think I need to do some more looking at that & see what happens.

Teresa xx

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

Yes, emotions too are thoughts and as many other thoughts are intricately expressed as sensations. So, is there a thinker of these thoughts or experiencer of this experience, albeit so close to the heart?

Here are the final questions. Take your time, do them in parts if you like. Again from de point of view.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience. 6) Anything to add?

Thanks.

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil
I've started my reply to the questions but it's going to take a while ... I may get time this afternoon or evening, or will certainly have time tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help, I'm quite enjoying being in this space & think I'll have a whole new way of meditating opening up to me:)
Teresa x

[kvotski]

here is a nonduality meditaion that you may enjoy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mz34AA ... 3A4Z_l8Hje

[TeresaC]

Thanks Sunil

I think it will be tomorrow now before I get to answer the questions. Hopefully it will be there before you get up.

Teresa

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil
Here are my answers to the final questions.

Here are the final questions. Take your time, do them in parts if you like. Again from de point of view.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity “self”, “me” or “I” at all. There are thoughts and sensations and whenever I look for a “me” I can’t find it, I just see thoughts & sensations. There never was a separate entity self – there was just an illusion and wrong view.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

In a way it makes it easier to use a mechanism of a separate self, as it becomes a sort of shorthand for the complex of thoughts & sensations that is the interaction with the world and others.

It must start in small children, when they realize that they have some control over their environment. I have a grandson of nearly 2, who has just started to realize that he has likes & dislikes, and gets very upset if he doesn’t get what he wants. He is taught the language of me, mine etc and this is becoming embedded in him. I don’t know if it would be possible to teach very young children to see everything as thoughts & sensations, maybe some cultures do this.

When we think that “I” exist, we have an illusion of having control over at least part of our lives. Although it is the “I” that is the illusion, and how we live & how decisions are made are all just products of conditions, from habits & thoughts about our earlier lives, or from the sensations in our body that are our connection to the world around us, eg seeing, hearing, tasting.

One of the hardest things to see differently was my iphone, it felt like an extension of me. I now see it as an object, the same as any other phones, with its content being thoughts that I had that were entered into the phone by fingers or more thoughts. I feel much less tightly connected to it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels quite clear. I’ve enjoyed the last couple of days just experiencing my daily life, & it felt more spacious. I thought I had got some of the way before I started, I just wasn’t sure.

The dialogue has given me some confidence that I had already got quite a long way, and has helped me to fill in some gaps. My first experience of “no self” was about a year ago, and was a big jolt, I think this further seeing has been a stabilizing & extending of that to all of my thought processes, and has actually been a fairly gentle, freeing & spacious experience. I had kept the sense of being just a bundle of learnings from last year, & learnt to embrace it, but this process has somehow taken it beyond that to know that there is no thinker, no controller, no decision maker, no experiencer. There is a sense of being much more integrated, with a lot more understanding & experiencing of how it all works.

This is an example that I wrote a couple of days ago :-

I see movement, and green. My mind labels that sight as tree outside the window, & also has a thought "I can see a tree". That is just a thought. There is the tree outside the window, there is the eye seeing the tree and then there is the brain with impulses & chemicals flashing around that makes the thoughts that identify it & label it a tree. And the thoughts that say "I" am seeing the tree. All of that makes up the experience. When its autumn in a few weeks the tree will turn yellow & then brown, so the experience will be different.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I already knew that I was just a bundle of learnings. I had also already done the looking for a chooser, decision maker & seen that all decisions are made based on conditions. It was extending that to a thinker & then an experiencer. As I looked into more & more of these areas, it all started to stop being just some separate parts of me that are based on conditions & I realised it must be all parts that are.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

There is no chooser, controller etc. Decisions are made based on previous & current conditions and there is no “personal decision”. The conditions include our internal habits, thoughts, previous actions of body & mind, & any external happenings or triggers. Also body sensations together with thoughts may be thought of as giving a “gut feel” about what decision is appropriate.

I included an example of how decisions were made for a journey home from visiting my daughter :-

I've been reflecting on how choices are made during the day. For a lot of choices they follow on from an initial choice. For example, I was away for the weekend, and decided to come back today. That was my mind looking at external happenings - nothing in my diary, sculpture workshop starts next week, leisurely drive home. That choice being made, lots of other choices just followed on and didn't require much thought. I had to pack my bags, look round for what I might have forgotten, load the car, set off. The best route has been worked out over a few years, so no decision really, except to follow what mind has already worked out.

I did need to make decisions over what to eat & drink. That was largely what I had with me or could find when I was hungry. A choice in a shop - no raspberry cheesecake, so creme caramel instead. That choice based on what gives me most pleasure out of what is available.

Nearly all those choices are based on a top level decision to make a journey. That was based on discussions with my daughter, so just a mix of her thoughts & my thoughts.

6) Anything to add?

I would like to thank LU for being there, and Sunil for his patience as I wrestled with my mind turning over & rambling as it settled into the new way of experiencing the experiencing.

OR

Thanks to LU for being there & to Sunil for patience as thoughts turned over, and writing rambled as there was settling into a new way of experiencing the experiencing.

Hmm not totally sure that is as comprehensible…

Please ask if you would like anything explained or elaborated on.

Teresa xx

[kvotski]

Hi "Teresa,

Thanks for answering the questions so completely. I will present it to the group and will get back to you if there are comments or questions.

In the mean time I had a couple of areas of clarification.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

.

It was extending that to a thinker & then an experiencer. As I looked into more & more of these areas, it all started to stop being just some separate parts of me that are based on conditions & I realised it must be all parts that are.

Not sure what you mean.

6) Anything to add?

I would like to thank LU for being there, and Sunil for his patience as I wrestled with my mind turning over & rambling as it settled into the new way of experiencing the experiencing.

OR

Thanks to LU for being there & to Sunil for patience as thoughts turned over, and writing rambled as there was settling into a new way of experiencing the experiencing.

Does this imply that there is an experiencer?

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

Here are some more guiding questions from other guides for you ponder and clarify.



1. "there was just an illusion and wrong view." Is there a "right view"?

2. "It must start in small children, when they realize that they have some control over their environment." Do small children actually have some control over their environment? Does anyone?

4. "it all started to stop being just some separate parts of me that are based on conditions & I realised it must be all parts that are." Has this been Experienced? Or only understood mentally?

5. "That choice being made, lots of other choices just followed on" Is there something that Chooses the first 'choice'? Does anything Choose to have choice or not?


Thanks.

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil,

I've combined your questions in with the others, & put them in the order of the original questions. Answering some of these has wobbled my thoughts, so there may be more pondering & answers needed, but I've decided to post these rather than wait till the morning & maybe more understanding.

1. "there was just an illusion and wrong view." ?? Is there a "right view"??

Interesting question. There is just experiencing sensations and thoughts. That is different to how it used to be. Walking down the street is a flow of experience which has a different feel to how it used to be, there is much less separation of subject / object or “me” and “out there”. That could perhaps be labeled as right view, or perhaps it doesn’t need a label, and probably it’s a point on a journey.

2. "It must start in small children, when they realize that they have some control over their environment." ??Do small children actually have some control over their environment? Does anyone??

What do I mean by control ? There is no controller, but there are thoughts of memories and learnings that some actions are more likely to produce pleasant experiences than others.

The knowing what will do this is a result of thoughts of previous experiences, so that I have a thought that eating a medium hot curry was a good taste experience, whereas eating a very hot curry was a bad taste experience. This would lead to eating more medium curries and hopefully no very hot curries.

A baby learns that they can move the pink things waving in front of their face, and that they can taste them if they move them in a certain way. So, as their bodies mature, their nervous systems mature, they learn how to move their hands, and later to hold a rattle that they can hear when they shake it. This is all learning that actions have consequences, and that by doing one thing they can cause other things to happen. So this happens earlier than language, and is a result of the conditions of the baby getting older, & doing more of what gives it pleasure.

Obviously there are no certainties that doing what we have learnt will give us pleasure will always have the same result, as outside conditions may not be the same as when we last did the activity. The new jar of chilli powder we put in the curry we are about to eat could be much hotter than the previous one. Our actions based on previous conditions that we think will recur, may well lead to different outcomes. The baby may roll over on the floor & be hugged, if it makes the same move on the edge of the bed there will be pain & tears.

So no, there is no control, there is only an illusion of control.

4. ‘What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?’

“It was extending that to a thinker & then an experiencer. As I looked into more & more of these areas, it all started to stop being just some separate parts of me that are based on conditions & I realised it must be all parts that are.”

?? Not sure what you mean. ??

4. "it all started to stop being just some separate parts of me that are based on conditions & I realised it must be all parts that are."
?? Has this been Experienced? Or only understood mentally??

I think I probably didn’t understand the original question, and I’m still not sure I understand it.

Seeing that all these parts of me – decision maker, thinker, experiencer etc do not exist and all decisions, experiences etc are based on conditions – thoughts & sensations - was experienced.

As I looked at each area in the dialogue with Sunil – could I find a thinker, a chooser, an experiencer, a controller, I realized that I couldn’t find any of them. That experience that there is no central self but everything is a result of sensations like seeing or touching, and thinking and the interaction between them was what pushed me over.

I’m still not sure that I’ve answered the question you’re asking. If not, please could it be worded a different way.

5. "That choice being made, lots of other choices just followed on" ??Is there something that Chooses the first 'choice'? Does anything Choose to have choice or not??

There is nothing that chooses the first choice. It is a result of the various conditions that exist – in my example, nothing in my diary, which allowed the thought of the prospect of a leisurely drive home. If there had been a sculpture workshop listed in the diary, that would have led to a drive home the previous evening, as a thought responding to the expected events of the next day.

All choices happen as a result of sensations and thoughts. The thoughts may be responses to other thoughts which could be memories of previous sensations of thoughts, or expectations of the future.

6) ‘Anything to add?’

“I would like to thank LU for being there, and Sunil for his patience as I wrestled with my mind turning over & rambling as it settled into the new way of experiencing the experiencing.

OR

Thanks to LU for being there & to Sunil for patience as thoughts turned over, and writing rambled as there was settling into a new way of experiencing the experiencing.”


??Does this imply that there is an experiencer??

No, there is no experiencer.

There are sensations - sitting in the chair, typing on a keyboard, a desklight shining on a printout & the screen on. I can feel the chair, the touch of fingers on keys, can hear the keys clicking, see the keyboard, computer screen, light, papers, mug of coffee, taste the coffee. Then there are thoughts that bring all the sensations and thoughts together into one whole experience that is labeled “sitting at my computer trying to describe an experience”.

The old habits are shifting – the computer is just a computer, it holds my thoughts, the mug is just a mug. No doubts but it needs practice.

Teresa

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

It looks like I have had enough with you.

Just kidding my dear.

Congratulations, our team has confirmed what I have known since we started that you clearly see the illusion that befuddles billions.

You will receive invitation to join our groups where you may wish to pursue further deepening, guiding others or not.

Thanks for a smooth conversations.