Hey Kevalino this is your thread

[Mad biker]

I am a bit frustrated, so it’s probably a good time to investigate feeling. There is a strong, compact sensation in the middle of my chest. The sides of my head are also tingly and radiate upwards. There is an unpleasant mental feeling or quality to the experience. I cannot find a self in these feelings. I now wonder if I am more attached (or stuck) to the body as self than feeling as self.

Really great observation in the above and very much closing in, on where a sense of self might possibly lurk (Gollum like in her cave!). But it's a wee bit ambiguous (or perhaps just stream-of-consciousness) the way it migrates from feeling to body. It might just be an element of the standard second week frustration that most Clients experience (even trepidation about opening up this site sometimes) If so that is not a problem in itself, frustration is fine.

I found this from the same source this morning which is usefully crisp and Heart Sutra like:

'Sensory Feelings (Vedana) - The lenses, windows or filters through which consciousness perceives objects of consciousness. There are two basic components: the six sense faculties (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, & thinking mind) and the six sensations (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, & dharmas or elements of reality). In contacting each other, there are six kinds of consciousness produced. Thus there are a total of eighteen realms of the mind.'

However, let's not allow familiarity with the material to intrude upon where it is pointing to in terms of raw data from the sensory acuities. Nor need we be overwhelmed by it either as you can largely skip seventeen of those 'realms of the mind' in any given moment of applied focus.

OK.
No iphone.
Just sitting there at your monitor,
a spot of kindly awareness breathing with posture...
I get the sense that a small lack of RELAXATION might have crept in with a grabby sense of wanting it RIGHT NOW?
Allow your breathing to enter and leave from that compacted area in your chest.
Turn to your sense of taste, that taste in your mouth right now. Is there a taster? Or is there just taste itself?

Frustration is provisionally OK. I just want to ask you: 'Who' is frustrated?
I think the Victorian translators of the Pali Canon were right on the money when using the word 'clinging'. Like a kid we cling on to this bogus 'self', but where does it get us? Does it get us a slightly adult buzz from being annoyed with the kid? Just being gentle and proceeding in a kindly manner with this.

Remember no gap.
By all means read it in the morning, but re-do the work in the evening and get right back to me writing it all down when it is still fresh in experience.

[Mad biker]

My emphasis on relaxation is a reminder that letting go in the body is a usefull way into letting go in the mind (ie softening things up for a letting go or a lessening of clinging) Do not work hard at this. As I said before, just a provisional and relative orientation towards letting go into calm is all you need here. Just go for say a 15% upgrade in that department.

[Kevalino]

As I sit with the that compact sense in my chest, my head also starts to hurt and I find myself crying for some reason. As I continue to sit with taste, there is no taster to be found. Just taste happening. It happens without “me.” I just noticed a split second moment between the time my mind wandered and when I came back to tasting sensations where it felt like the physiological aspects of tasting were still happening even though I wasn’t paying attention to them, and the sensations only come into being when I notice.

Who is frustrated? I am sitting with that sensation in my chest. A thought, “I am frustrated,” arises and I notice the sensations get more intense. The thought continues to just echo in my mind, “I am frustrated, I am frustrated, I am frustrated...” and the sensations subside and the thought no longer triggers the previous intensity. I see the thought as a passing sensation as well.

Who is frustrated? The root cause is not getting what I want in many areas of life. Yes, I see the clinging. The frustration and sensation gradually disappeared and then there was a feeling of not wanting to let it go, like a habitual thought around the frustration not being resolved, so how can it just go away?

There is a sense that the “I” has to DO something with all these different sensations and thoughts that arise. Would I just become an alienated sensation robot if everything were just allowed to arise and cease within this body-mind without the I-making process?

No gaps here. I will continue this exploration throughout the day and relax!

[Mad biker]

I just noticed a split second moment between the time my mind wandered and when I came back to tasting sensations where it felt like the physiological aspects of tasting were still happening even though I wasn’t paying attention to them, and the sensations only come into being when I notice.

The above is really great observation, but your next bit seems to be really closing in on it:

The frustration and sensation gradually disappeared and then there was a feeling of not wanting to let it go, like a habitual thought around the frustration not being resolved, so how can it just go away?

There is a sense that the “I” has to DO something with all these different sensations and thoughts that arise. Would I just become an alienated sensation robot if everything were just allowed to arise and cease within this body-mind without the I-making process?

Too late in the UK now to fully respond to this really lovely exposition of openly, receptive reflecting on your part. Can I just recommend that you just settle yourself with a bit of kindly breathing before reciting The Heart Sutra before bed tonight? You'll be glad you did Kevalino!
More from me in the morning (UK time)
Good Night!

[Mad biker]

OK so you have gone through each of the five skandhas; body, feeling, thought, choice and consciousnes and you have told me that you could not find a 'self' in any of them.

Have you seen?
Have you seen through the illusion of having what people refer to as a 'self'?

Don't rush this, just LOOK in direct experience.

Get back to me if you can before 9.30pm UK time (because it's now the weekend right?)

[Kevalino]

I’m sorry, but my weekend started Friday evening, so I could not get back to you in time. I am now settled in a lovely cabin in the woods on a beautiful island.

Have I seen? Yes, I believe so, but I don’t feel any different than when I first started. Maybe expectations are getting in the way. I know all the material says it is different for each person, but wouldn’t I at least feel something? Wouldn’t I be able to pinpoint the moment?

When I look for self, the only thing I see is experience, which is now more vivid and alive. The sound of teenagers talking outside my car as I waited for the ferry today, or the way the sunlight from outside illuminated the flowers in my cabin. Sometimes, I’m just caught up in my day and don’t notice much. This feels very familiar. And yet, whenever I do step back and look (as I am doing now), it is awfully pleasant. However, it’s not the typical worldly pleasure. It’s deeply intimate and present. It feels like time just stops for a moment while sights, sounds, and thoughts roll on. I feel like I could simply sit for hours, or days, and just be. Perhaps the difference is that there are more moments like this than before.

[Mad biker]

When I look for self, the only thing I see is experience, which is now more vivid and alive. The sound of teenagers talking outside my car as I waited for the ferry today, or the way the sunlight from outside illuminated the flowers in my cabin. Sometimes, I’m just caught up in my day and don’t notice much. This feels very familiar. And yet, whenever I do step back and look (as I am doing now), it is awfully pleasant. However, it’s not the typical worldly pleasure. It’s deeply intimate and present. It feels like time just stops for a moment while sights, sounds, and thoughts roll on. I feel like I could simply sit for hours, or days, and just be. Perhaps the difference is that there are more moments like this than before.

Well Kevalino, I could imagine one or two post-Gaters reading that and saying;

"Jeezus, would you listen to HER!? Some of us just don't get anything like that at all!!!"

Yes, it had sounded to me like expectations were intruding from day one. However, our stroll through the sensory acuities has done no harm whatsoever and at least you are now in lovely conditions there in that nice wooden cabin for, well, not exactly bad news; it is just deeply unremarkable news that's all!:

THIS THING IS PRETTY ORDINARY REALLY!

I'd just like you to take a look at some stock coaching pointers which you'd have largely inhaled from the Gateless book and this site in general but they might have slipped away into the background over time. It is good to recognize the expectations you have for awakening. It will be nothing like what you expect. Here we are not looking for an experience or an altered mind-state. This is not a quick path to eternal bliss or anything like that. We are looking for a simple recognition of reality. That is all.

This is not a project where you gather information, cover lots of different angles, lay out the results, and draw conclusions. It is about looking within your experience to see what the “I” is. It is about taking an honest look. It’s not about thoughts.

Let go of all the beliefs, all the gurus or masters, all the books you have read or seminars you have followed. They won’t help here. This is not something learned; it is something to see. It comes in different ways, but when you know it, you know it. The present moment is the only truth.

Don’t look to “liberated others” to define your own knowing. Everyone is different, and every karma-stream is different. With some there is a huge “pop” (like a champagne cork), and with others a soft pop. In the end, the knowing that you have truly seen through self is truly yours. Otherwise this would be persuasion, not investigation.

This work does not aim to trigger certain types of altered states of consciousness. These may happen (or not), yet they are entirely beside the point. What these conversations are intended to do is invite you to simply look directly at what is already the case right now, regardless of whatever state of consciousness may be happening.

The wish for a final “done” is; surprise, surprise a story of the final carrot to be reached, a reason for the fictional “I” to try to get “somewhere.” Everything is constantly changing, moving, and interacting. There is no “done” in the real world. If you want to be at home, be at home in the flow.

This isn’t about making the sense of being alive stronger or experienced more clearly. It’s simply about seeing what is real when you are not subject to the “I” illusion.

You do not have to have a spiritual history or a certain number of hours of meditation to see the truth. This has nothing to do with enhanced states, nor is any prior knowledge needed. All you need is the desire to see, no matter what, and the will to engage with this inquiry fully.

[Kevalino]

THIS THING IS PRETTY ORDINARY REALLY!

This made me laugh out loud. I'll revisit the area of expectations. I found it helpful to re-read the material you included on that topic. Thanks.

[Mad biker]

Besides, a great deal probably took place on that significant event seven years ago and has probably been evolving since then too. What age were you then?

Coming back to the present though; one recent Gater called Gating; 'eerily ordinary'.
Sometimes a client on here goes to bed with the same old self, then they wake up next day without it! They just have the five Skandhas alone, nothing more! I have two friends whose awakening happened just like that, when they were asleep!

The Buddha did not say; 'There is conditoned co-production.., plus a self guys'

Instead he said there is conditioned co-production and that is it, full stop!

He did not teach that there is no fixed unchanging self, instead he taught that there is no self at all!

(That no-fixed-unchanging-self idea probably started out as a modern skillful means for teaching Baby Boomer spacers, but it has accidentally resulted in some folk relating to it as though they had a PERMANENT ((if changing!)) self.)

Just sit there, take some breaths in metta and take this in:
The aim of this inquiry is not to give security. It is to see through illusion to reality. And in that process, we find that the person looking for security doesn’t exist. Then the need for finding security and the need for answers falls away, too.
Nothing changes after awakening. It is just a way to see things differently, without a “self” involved, and without thoughts gripping the mind for hours about who and how you are. This is a peace.

In awakening, the belief in a solid, controlling self is dropped. All of a sudden it is seen there really wasn’t anything to do, because nothing could be done. It is the realizing that there is nothing to realize. Thoughts arise, the body acts, and life is lived, but it is not happening to anyone, so to speak.

What we are doing here is not about a state of oneness. It’s not about a fleeting state that comes and goes. It does not require meditation or sitting in silence. It is about showing the mind what is real and what is imaginary.

We are not going to take anything away. What you take to be your self is an illusion. We are simply going to see this. We will see how this delusion distorts reality and causes all of your suffering.

Can you remember some occasion when you realized that something you previously believed to be true, actually wasn’t? Have you ever come to realize that your views on something prevented you from seeing the thing as it is? Probably yes. So how would the world change if “you” didn’t exist? What if everything you had believed to be “you” was be seen to be an illusion? That’s one description of awakening. You see that you are not the body, feelings, or thoughts.

We’re not looking for a specific kind of feeling, or even something out-of-the-ordinary. We’re looking to see what has always already been the case no separation. No “in here,” no “out there,” no “me here, the rest of the world out there.” It’s always been like this and will always be like this.

If there is no belief in a separate “you,” then there are no expectations. Life is just experience unfolding. Expectations are nothing more than thoughts.

All we are doing here is seeing through the illusion that there is a separate self. You are not going to become a saint. You will not disappear. You never 'were' in the first place. The world will be the same world you are experiencing now. The difference is that the story of self will be seen through; the chattering of mind that cries ownership will be seen to be a lie; the thoughts that busily smooth over the holes in experience will be seen to be fantasy. You will simply notice that you have a new perspective, and that you no longer believe in a separate self.

Look closely at the most precious beliefs that are close to the heart, those in the “no-touch” zone. They are the ones that you really need to inspect up close. You will recognize them by the feeling of resistance. Follow resistance. It is here to let you know that another bit of the lie is sitting somewhere, waiting to be noticed.

Realization feels like waking up in a dream. You haven’t left the dream, and nothing looks any different, but there is a feeling that whatever you are is vastly different than what you have previously taken yourself to be. This realization creates a feeling of wonder. You will see at a deeper level how powerful the illusion created by the mind is.

'Selfing' still arises sometimes post Gate. It is habit we have wirings, the negative wirings erode over time post gate, and the positive ones strengthen. Do not be upset when 'selfing' occurs, do not banish it, just TURN TOWARDS IT. Notice how it weakens and fades?

[Mad biker]

Hey, we just crossed in the post there but it was nice to read that you laughed out loud there! I should add like a responsible Buddhist that it really is a huge big deal Karmically by the way. But this is only the beginning of that starting to unfold which is pretty handy really, coz if it all went at once, well, Christ knows what that would be like eh?

[Kevalino]

Brilliant. It was good to come back to all that and actually check it against my current experience.

A precious belief made itself known as I looked into this area. I did not think anything was there at first. As I continued to sit with the possibility of a “no touch” zone, what arose quite strongly was a lingering belief about being special. It used to actively manifest as competitiveness, comparison, judging, superiority, jealousy, etc. I spotted this belief two years ago and have been circling around it since. As a result, it has attentuated, but is still there. What came up today was this belief about being special to one person in particular. It was painful to look at because I did not want to let go of it, but seeing it more clearly and how it creates suffering has been strangely liberating. It’s like the longing to be special that was ensnared in the false belief is now released as love that is available to everyone, and not just one person. And, there’s freedom in that.

By the way, I just wanted to check - I know we’re never “done,” but are we done? I have to say, I will miss our daily communication and my heart is full of gratitude for you. Thank you, Mad Biker.

[Kevalino]

I just answered my own question - we are done. We DO have the answer and it’s right in front of us, staring us in the face. I KNOW now, without a shadow of a doubt.

It happened shortly after my last post. I laid down on the windowsill bench, listening to Arvo Part and watching the paper cranes from a mobile on the ceiling slowly glide through space. You were absolutely spot on about relaxing. In that moment of complete relaxation and letting go, I saw the beauty and perfection of everything - the beautiful, the ugly and the mundane. Everything is saturated. That is the best word I can find to describe the experience. Deep peace, contentment and happiness is present, and all it takes is a certain way of looking. I sat there and just took it all in for hours. I wanted to write about the experience without gaps, but I could not tear myself away from all the beauty and wonder. So beautiful that it made my heart ache at one point.

I fell asleep. In that brief bardo between sleeping and waking up, I noticed immense peace and bliss.

Today brought back memories of an insight experience I had six years ago and now it all fits together. I'm going to the beach now and won't be online until tonight, maybe tomorrow morning.

[Mad biker]

Lovely stuff!
Excuse my delay. I am in London and will be back to you later today

[Mad biker]

Well that is all looking very good indeed!
I am just going to send you these six questions to answer, which may give rise to other questions, or may not.

1)
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2)
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see
it now.
3)
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4)
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5)
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6)
Anything to add?

[Kevalino]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity called “self,” “me,” or “I,” nor is there a “mine.” Ownership, appropriation, seeking and guarding also goes with the illusion. It seems futile and ludicrous now to think in these terms. This separate entity cannot be found anywhere in any shape or form because it is only a fabricated thought associated with particular sensations that have become habitually linked to this fictitious self.

Was there ever? No, it has only been one story or thought piled on top of each other like a house of cards until I could not see the difference. It’s like that nursery rhyme “Jack and Jill” - Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came tumbling after. We spend our lives trying to get up the hill. Seeking what? A pail of water? At some point, we break, or see through the illusion. Then everything falls apart and comes tumbling down.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see
it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a deception of the mind that arises through repetitive causes and conditions. It starts with labeling. For example, if I do something “good” at work that brings me praise, my boss might say, “Kevalino, you did a good job.” I may then think “I did a good job.” The labels “you/I” or “Kevalino” have arisen, as well as the label “good.” We don’t see the labels for what they are. Simply labels, conventions.

The second deception comes about with the ensuing pleasurable sensations. All sorts of sensations (feelings, thoughts, emotions) arise in the body-mind when this happens. However, we are ignorant to direct experience. Instantaneously, these sensations merge with the labels and solidify. This creates separation, the final deception, which further reinforces the self.

Over time and through repetition, as far as the brain is concerned, these sensations now become “I” or “Kevalino.” They become hard wired. Thoughts become self, feelings become self. In fact, just about everything you can point to in experience is then experienced self-referentially. Our whole world becomes all about us.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Liberating. I feel peaceful, content, and happy. Yesterday at the beach, I felt a sense of connection and sensitivity to everyone I encountered. Don’t get me wrong, shit still happens. This morning as I sat, unpleasant sensations arose in association with a thought about someone. However, I just sat with it because I know now it is just a habit - person, thought, sensation all previously linked to a false sense of self. As the sensations dissolved, there was pure bliss. I might have even audibly said, “Ahh” if not in my mind. I don’t expect bliss, nor do I seek it, but it did give me a strong experience of the liberation that is possible without attaching to self.

I described a sense of relief and letting go on my recent retreat, but it now feels like a deeper letting go. I’ve been noticing there’s no rush or need to do anything in particular now. If it takes an hour to make breakfast, that’s just what’s happening now. If I just want to watch videos all morning, that is the unfolding of life right now.

The most obvious difference from before I started this dialogue is that the observer has been gone since yesterday. Those sensations behind my eyes and the sides of my head that I described are gone. There was also a strong sensation in the central channel from my head down my torso that is gone. It just happened without any doing on my part.

Seeing, hearing and all of it is less effortful than before now that those sensations and observer are gone. When I look now, it’s crisper, cleaner, brighter, more direct, and with that sense of wonder. Everything feels new and at the same time very ordinary. I watched a LU video this morning where Elena said “Fuck the observer.” In other words, just drop it and return to the wonder of a child. In three words, that pretty much summarizes my experience right now.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last bit that pushed me over the edge was just relaxing, letting go and dropping effort. Looking back, this happened on my recent retreat as well. I think I was close after that. I just needed this intense, systematic framework that LU provides, coupled with that deep relaxation yesterday.

It reminds me of something I realized seven years ago - staying with the tension leads to transformation. Tension builds up until it feels unbearable. If you run away, it’s over for now, but you eventually have to begin again because it doesn’t go away. But if you stay with it, something mysterious happens in that space of falling back.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Deciding, intending, and choosing happens, but there is no one controlling anything. There is no decider, intender, chooser or controller.
I don’t make anything happen. All that’s present are the five aggregates subject to clinging - body, feelings, thoughts, volitions, consciousness - and constant flow/movement. It’s so beautiful I can hardly stand it.

Life is the example from my experience. Everything “I” did today just happens - from the time I woke up at 7am until right now at 4:14pm when I turned up the volume to one of my favorite Turin Brakes song. And now, something else is just happened - I took a break from writing to dance to the song. No self, I or me can be found that brought all of that into being.

6) Anything to add?

I’m ready to play now and let the game unfold on its own :)