I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

[Lanimal]

Hi Paulo,

Btw, thanks for your support so far.

I found myself several times, today and yesterday, where I was thought-wandering and then... hmmm how to say this.. fell back into direct experience and breathing. I do not know what caused it, but it was like the sound of my breath was a reminder to wake up. Or a plane going by, I dont know. It felt good to experience this without effort.
Next to that, I had moments today where I felt sad for whatever reason (loneliness, not being loved, feelings of like having nobody/being single) and with effort though I reminded me to think 'what that had to do with the present'. It took quit some looking at the pain-feeling to pass through, but after that I felt completely normal/neutral and alive. But sure emotions are very strong and persistent to keeping you inside wandering, compared with the other more natural fall back into breathing/looking.
I sort of realized that I truly believed at that moment the idea I was lonely, and that that believe totally vanished after that.

Now that you are beginning to see that the contents of thought pulling you away from reality are not real, and you have a technique for shifting awareness from the content of thought to direct experience,

This is exactly how I experienced the above

Just allow yourself to be where you are now. The acorn doesn't worry about being good enough to become an oak tree, it just lets whatever unfolds in the moment to happen.

This is like totally against my inner view. Without becoming an oak tree, the acorn is not good enough. This is.. in my blood so to speak. This is so 'me'. If the acorn would not become the oak then this acorn is not good enough. This is how I was raised, and although I dont like this vision at all, if something is not good enough. I am a king in judging, and it is always judged negatively. My whole being is like this forward-looking machine, while I am missing out the whole journey. (I think this hit a snare here;)

Previously I asked you to consider the statement - Nothing exists outside the present moment, and you mentioned that you weren't sure if you were answering the question.

I (think I) fully understand that there could not be anything outside the present moment. There could not be anything else then the present moment.
Every idea about the present or about the future or the past would have to happen in the present. Every reference to an idea in the past, will be happening in the present. Come to think of it, while writing this down, there can not even BE any future or past. Everything that happens outside the present would simply be something.... miraculous. Like a different alter Universe. (although 'time' is not a fixed thing in science though)
But yet this feels somewhat awkward as you do see people aging, so some sort of progression appears to be taking place.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

Btw, thanks for your support so far.

You’re very welcome – it’s great to guide someone who puts in the work!

I found myself several times, today and yesterday, where I was thought-wandering and then... hmmm how to say this.. fell back into direct experience and breathing.

It’s nice to see that change from a situation where thoughts seemed to dominate totally.

I sort of realized that I truly believed at that moment the idea I was lonely, and that that believe totally vanished after that.

Great, I’m pleased that technique is working for you. I’m sure you can see also from that experience that thoughts will just drift through if you don’t invest or attach to them. They seem to arise, stay for a while, and then pass on as they’re replaced by other thoughts. Just like waves coming in from the sea and breaking on the shore – sometimes they’re stormy and terrifying, other times serene. But whether they are big or small, they break on the shore all the same. It can be a fascinating process to watch.

There could not be anything else then the present moment.
Every idea about the present or about the future or the past would have to happen in the present. Every reference to an idea in the past, will be happening in the present. Come to think of it, while writing this down, there cannot even BE any future or past.

This has been my experience also, there is nothing outside the present moment. It’s all right here, right now – life, love, the universe, and all that is. There’s nothing else. The past is a memory of a previous present moment, recreated in thought only in the here and now. The future is a simulated future present moment, created in thought only in the here and now.

But yet this feels somewhat awkward as you do see people aging, so some sort of progression appears to be taking place.

Absolutely. In my experience, what we commonly call time are cycles of growth and decay. They are only happening in the now, and we perceive change (growth or decay) by comparing a memory/record of a past present moment with observations in the here and now and noting differences. Time lapse photography is a great way to observe this – each frame is just a present moment recorded, but if we put them all together we can observe a progression.

Just for fun –

Growth - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WyiAh0PoxM

Decay - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S12zZhdOckc

[Paulo]

Without becoming an oak tree, the acorn is not good enough. This is.. in my blood so to speak. This is so 'me'. If the acorn would not become the oak then this acorn is not good enough. This is how I was raised, and although I dont like this vision at all, if something is not good enough. I am a king in judging, and it is always judged negatively.

Let’s take a look at this more closely, in the present moment –

Firstly, are these statements ‘facts’ or ‘beliefs’?

Secondly, and I’ll need you to be ruthless here – what EXACTLY is the ‘I’ being referred to here?

(no theories or thoughts on this one please – look in the present moment ONLY - be very strict and focused)

Paulo.

[Lanimal]

Are these facts or beliefs..?

Hmmm... well.. its a fact that I judge a lot, and most things I judge as not good enough. Its a feeling of resistance to what is present.
If a situation changes or somebody comes up to me I sort of instinctively view this as hostile. Combined with envy.
Its like I wish everybody, the whole world would just leave me alone, while meanwhile I feel not-integrated, lonely, and a sort of desperate.

I noticed I dont live in harmony a lot.

This is a fact. Most of the time I feel rather sad/frustrated/lonely. But yes this is a belief too, as harmony is an opinion, or at least a measurement from a certain stand point. But I can not neglect the fact that I have a lot of difficulties living with the world around me.

Which brings me to the second part of your question, Who is this "I"?

The I is the person, or the entity that has these feelings. The entity through which these feelings pass by. Or the feelings itself, more likely, as there could nothing exists outside the present moment. Okee, well I see the difference now while writing this down, that the Me is an idea, and the me can not be somethng different then the feelings, so as I am usually used to think Me and (my) Feelings are two separate things, while writing this I realise there is either no me but just feelings, or an image of me (in the present).
Okee.. so there is no difference between me and feelings. I get that. Probably this clarity will be gone tomorrow.
I can only speak about me as an idea, a thought-wander since in the present moment there can only exists day-dreams or direct Experience. So any reference of me is nothing more then a 'now-what-has-this-thought-got-to-do-with-the-present-moment' thought waiting to fall back to d.E.

Ok... this thing has to sink in for a while, I think. I never realized this before.

For some reason it is very logical, yet I never saw it this before.
There is either the present moment perceived, or any idea of the present moment.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

Ok... this thing has to sink in for a while, I think. I never realized this before.

I’ll let you sit with that for a while, as I think it’s very much worthwhile letting it settle for a moment, or even looking at what you’ve seen in different situations and checking if the experience is still valid. But don’t worry, we’ll come back to it tomorrow and see if your insight has brought you anything else new in regard to what the ‘self’ is.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d like to focus today on the first part of your last response, although, given the wonderful insight you had, perhaps it won’t be so relevant anymore.

Just to recap –
You made statements related to being judgemental, and not being good enough. I asked you to look at these statements and ask yourself if they were facts or beliefs. You responded that they were facts. Let us look at them in light of your experience with ‘direct experience’ in the present moment.

(I’ll just give you one example of how to explore your statements here – you can use the same approach with other statements in your original paragraph and see what happens.)

It’s a fact that I judge a lot, and most things I judge as not good enough.

Look at this statement closely – you may notice that this and many of your statements are of the style ‘I do this’ or ‘I do that’. Although slightly different, they almost sound like ‘definition’ statements – ‘I am this’ or ‘I am that’.

If direct experience in the present moment is all that there is, then isn’t THAT your experience, isn’t THAT what you’re doing, rather than some fixed statements that read like a list of instructions about what you should be shouldn’t be doing, or being.

My experience has been those who invest in these statements will repeat these ‘definition’ statements over and over again to themselves and others. Every time an ‘I am’ statement is repeated we tend to adopt that instruction, taking us away from what’s actually being experienced.

Yes, in the past you may have judged negatively – but just look in the moment – these are memories of past moments, they don’t actually exist anymore, except as thoughts. Likewise, when you imagine a future of interacting with people negatively, it’s just a thought, that future doesn’t exist.

I want you to look - Right here, right now, the only moment that exists – is the statement you make above ‘I judge’ a valid one?

Is there really an ‘I’ judging, or is there just the occasional experience of judging?
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Here’s a little bonus exercise for you (purely optional though).

Next time you pass someone on the street, or someone comes up to you, do something unexpected. Perhaps just smile at them, or say ‘hi, isn’t the day lovely’, or even admire something about them (doesn’t have to be expressed out loud) for example, if someone cuts you up in traffic say ‘hmm, nice car’.

[I’ll explain the function of this exercise if you try it, and share your experience. My only instruction is to watch what happens and prepare for fireworks!]

[Lanimal]

Before answering the questions, I wanted to say that this process is doing a lot to me.
After my little insight that the "me" only exists as a thought, or outside direct Experience, things went form totally clear, to totally blurrrr and back and forth again.
My Me is taking me on roller-coasters here where black is as deep as it can be, to total unfearful heights and back again.
I had these roller-coasters before, last year. I would describe them as almost suicidal/depressed to extremely happy. Right now I would say that it looks like the more is revealed or dis-covered the stronger the Me comes by defending its territory.
I witnessed total allowance today, I could sit in bench for a whole day and completely enjoy every cloud, breeze, delay, thought, cars, people, sounds etc.
But the day before I felt completely unworthy, ugly, incompetent, incomplete, failure and lonely. And during this period it was impossible to feel any gratitude for this 'storm' washing ashore. I said to myself that this was just a phase, but to the deepest in my hart I could not see this, or feel Any hope that this would ever stop. I was total resistance.
It is so weird that this storm was so all consuming, while today there was so much clarity and allowance.

I tried to get to direct Experience yesterday, but it was just not possible (making me feel even worse).
Right now I wish I could evolve the clearness of dE. in stormy weather, but of course, this wish per definition will create more chaos so this desire has no value, but ... well.. its just amazing to see the differences in mental states.

[Lanimal]

Look at this statement closely – you may notice that this and many of your statements are of the style ‘I do this’ or ‘I do that’. Although slightly different, they almost sound like ‘definition’ statements – ‘I am this’ or ‘I am that’.

If direct experience in the present moment is all that there is, then isn’t THAT your experience, isn’t THAT what you’re doing, rather than some fixed statements that read like a list of instructions about what you should be shouldn’t be doing, or being.

In these jugdemental-self-depressed states of mind the direct experience does not count. At that moment or moments, d.E. is a theory to me. The self-depressing state is all-consuming. Any second in d.E. is answered by an exponential doses of day-dreams.
Then the self-depressed thoughts are not viewed for what they are, but vivid as ever.
I said to myself yesterday the analog of being the coast where the storms hits, but the belief in the storm was complete.
But you are right, even if the storm is all there is, this can be perceived as such. Good point.
Even embracing the storm as in looking at it, you are correct. I could feel the storm, but not see that the Me and the storm were the same thing, I saw them as separate again.
I need to practice on the breathing more.

I want you to look - Right here, right now, the only moment that exists – is the statement you make above ‘I judge’ a valid one?

Haha... this is a trick question.
Because when you say to me "I judge" I completely/automatically step into the perspective of the I, then think about this statement, then think by myself: "Definitely Yes, I judge, I do that all the time, I judge this and that, bla bla.." But after a 20 sec a little voice inside my head says.. 'wait a minute.. this implies an "I"'
Is there an 'I' judging... no there is only judging. But damm.. this is the million dollar question. And you either see the answer, or think about it and then by definition you are lost wandering.
"Is there anything else then judging.." jeeezz.. this statement confuses me, then I take the step that from a dE. perspective there can only be judging in the present moment, so the "I" disappears as a judger, which dissolves the I/the Me.
Then clarity comes and then blur again.

In the present moment there can be no I

Is there really an ‘I’ judging, or is there just the occasional experience of judging?

Well, see above. Only experience. (Or a day-dream.)

[Lanimal]

Here’s a little bonus exercise for you (purely optional though).

I did the (forced) contra-reaction, when I ran into 'negative' daily things.
I see the fun of it, it unravels the stress factor, for sure.
But while doing it I experience a form of resistance in doing this, because it feels like I shine light on a character aspect of me that I do not want to see. Its like looking in the sun, you dont really want to look at it, that is the feeling it gives me, you rather turn your head away.. It feels like I like to moan and complain and now that part is dis-covered but it does not not to be discovered.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn, thank you for your postings,

Right now I wish I could evolve the clearness of dE. in stormy weather, but of course, this wish per definition will create more chaos so this desire has no value, but ... well.. its just amazing to see the differences in mental states.

You can see that this wish is just an expectation. Sure, it would be nice to only have harmony and happiness and bliss, in the same way as it would be nice to only have sunshine and calm seas and an endless summer. But it’s all just wishful thinking, a fantasy, an illusion, it will never happen, EVER.

More importantly is your observation that these are just mental states, they are not preserved, but arise, stay awhile, and then fade as other states arise. This is life as it is, not the Hollywood or Disney Channel version. What’s key here is to look at those states, and we can use the analogy of the sea to explore further. In less enlightened times people believed Lord Poseidon commanded every aspect of the ocean, every wave, every storm was brought forth at his whim. This is just a story of course, there’s no Poseidon there at all.

Look at your stormy thoughts – is there an ‘I’ there separate from the thoughts creating them and directing them?

I need to practice on the breathing more.

You don’t need to practice anything, or gain a skill, all you have to do is look – it sounds corny, but you’re already where you’re trying to get too. It’s really that simple. If you find yourself In a storm at sea, or in experience, the same technique can help – face the bow into the storm and ride it out. Learn to walk before you run, and don’t beat yourself up because you can’t finish a marathon. As I said before – one step at a time, follow the guiding and exercises, nice and slow, step by step.

If the storm is not too powerful make your way to safe harbour, i.e. direct experience. But if you are too far out to sea and cannot get to DE just ride it out. It will pass. It can’t not pass, it’s just a matter of time.

The crucial thing you need to look at, and look hard here – is there an ‘I’ separate from that storm making that all happen?

In the present moment there can be no I

And is there ANYTHING outside the present moment?

But while doing it I experience a form of resistance in doing this, because it feels like I shine light on a character aspect of me that I do not want to see. Its like looking in the sun, you dont really want to look at it, that is the feeling it gives me, you rather turn your head away.. It feels like I like to moan and complain and now that part is dis-covered but it does not not to be discovered.

Let’s look at this in more detail – there was an experience of resistance – that actually happened. It came and went. The rest of the paragraph is a story ABOUT what happened. The rest of the paragraph is a thinking ABOUT what happened, it’s not real.

Try that exercise again, and no, it’s function is not stress relief - just look at the reaction.(I told you to expect fireworks!)

Paulo :)

[PS: It's also important to post every day. If you can't post for any reason, just let me know]

[Lanimal]

Look at your stormy thoughts – is there an ‘I’ there separate from the thoughts creating them and directing them?

In the stormy thoughts there is the believe of the I. Today I hurt my hand while surfing. So I was in the sea and thinking "Ouch my hand hurts".
Then thinking of your response I tried to unravel the "me" from the story. But it was impossible. I could not in any way understand there was no Me or I. My hand truly hurt, there as no way around it. And it was my hand. I was sort of disappointed because I wanted to prove to myself that I truly understand all this liberation stuff on a profound level, and this clearly put me back to primary school.

It took a few minutes to realize that I did not Feel the pain, I told a story about feeling the pain. There I was, either thinking about the pain, or actually feeling itches in my hand. I could also switch between the two. It felt amazing to see the thought-machine is a defense mechanism to prevent the body from experiencing reality.
This was so weird.

So there is the answer. There is no "I". There can never be any I, there are either stories or there is direct perception of feelings and experiences.
Assuming that there is an I in "I need to do this, I am that" is nothing more then a big verbal misinterpretation/misrepresentation of what is actually happening. Either there is pain, or suffering of happiness or whatever, and there is no need to bring in any 'I' as is serves no function. It blurs the mind. And it separates the present moment into 'me' and 'the feeling' widening the gap of direct experience.

This is sinking in, but.. to see this many times I need a few steps to get there. Because when I am thinking about something then I do not realize that I am not looking.

More importantly is your observation that these are just mental states, they are not preserved, but arise, stay awhile, and then fade as other states arise. This is life as it is, not the Hollywood or Disney Channel version.

I like the Wave/Storm analog, it helps me to take a small step back. The next step would be to reunite the I and the storm-thoughts into the direct feeling.

The crucial thing you need to look at, and look hard here – is there an ‘I’ separate from that storm making that all happen?

I am not in any storm right now, and I cant simulate it. The fact there is no "I" is a clear in one second, and gone in the next. Right now my opinion would be "How could there possibly be no I" I just could not imagine how that would be possible. "I" have been there, always. How could this/i not-be-there?!
I think I will tattoo "Breathe, Look & Feel" on my arm, to remind me I need to look and feel instead of think.

Try that exercise again, and no, it’s function is not stress relief - just look at the reaction.(I told you to expect fireworks!)

I tried the exercise again today. Automatically actually. Several times. No fireworks yet. I see something shitty in front of me, I respond with criticism (like Fucker, hurry up with your stupid car), I feel that I am in contraction, then I respond (like: nice t shirt you have), but no fireworks. I just feel the contraction. I will do it again tomorrow. Maybe I will discover what you mean by fireworks.

One funny thing though.. you mentioned I should respond for example like "Nice car you have." when somebody cuts you off, so I now use this for many things. So, at the bar somebody jumped the queue so I thought "Nice car you have". Haha.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn, thanks for your response once again, and it's nice to see you're a little more playful and having some fun with this process, just being there and enjoying, and not worrying about results.

So there is the answer. There is no "I". There can never be any I, there are either stories or there is direct perception of feelings and experiences.

Nicely put. Over the next few days you will probably observe that hand heal, and the bruising fade. But always ask yourself, is there an 'I' somewhere making all this happen, taking down the swelling, and knitting things back together again? Let me know if you find one.

I tried the exercise again today. Automatically actually. Several times. No fireworks yet. I see something shitty in front of me, I respond with criticism (like Fucker, hurry up with your stupid car), I feel that I am in contraction, then I respond (like: nice t shirt you have), but no fireworks. I just feel the contraction. I will do it again tomorrow. Maybe I will discover what you mean by fireworks.

Great you tried that again. Nice to see you can have some fun with it too. By fireworks I meant the minds habitual reaction to change - resistance. When we try to change a habit, whether that be smoking, overthinking, or judging negatively, the mind will flip out and try every trick to stop that change. When you tried that exercise before you saw some of those 'fireworks', and the mind will literally act like a spoilt 5 year old, moaning and groaning and stamping it's feet. That's all it means, it can be spectacular sometimes.

The function of that exercise was to show you that the same incident can result in two completely different responses. For example, two people can be watching the same sunset. One might say - 'wow what a beautiful sunset, it's so calm and peaceful, the colours are truely amazing'. The other may say - 'Oh no, a red sunset, that means there's going to be rain tomorrow, and it will be a horrible day'. Each of these reactions is just as valid as the other, each just a creation, so why create the negative one.

Remember - A happy man lives in a happy world, a sad man in a sad world.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's look at the elements of direct experience more closely, so you can integrate your understanding so far.

Let's look at THOUGHTS in a little more detail today -

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of a car in as much detail as you can.

How did the thought arrive? Was there a Martijn there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?

Paulo :-)

[Lanimal]

"What has this thought got to do with the present moment"

I have to repeat this to myself as I drift of in mind-wandering again.
Or to put it better: Reading this statement helps shifting the body/mind perspective to the present.

Great you tried that again. Nice to see you can have some fun with it too. By fireworks I meant the minds habitual reaction to change - resistance. When we try to change a habit, whether that be smoking, overthinking, or judging negatively, the mind will flip out and try every trick to stop that change.

This is a very good observation of you. I wish I saw this myself. When I changed the thought content from 'angry' to "Nice car" and there was a lot of resistance to saying this, there were feelings of 'Nice try, but i (still) dont like that other person anyway, so be positive what you want, i hate him anyway'.
While in rest I can clearly see there is no I inside the present moment, during the contraction the I is suddenly and unmistakably there, standing ground, and not moving one inch from its position as to speak. Basically it is not said from an I-less position, as direct perception is/was not taking place at that present moment. I still do not have the non-I perspective. Okee, I formulate this wrong.. I am not looking most of the time, I am thinking about it.
The Idea Me is very present in my perception.

The Car Experiment
The experiment takes me on a trip into thought. It was a page flipping through memory to get an image of a car. I ended up with how I would draw a car on a piece of paper. Like how a 5 year old would draw a car. How did that thought arrive? My easy guess is of course from the outside, from reading your statement. Which triggered the thought process. But how the thought did really arrive? I have no way of knowing. I do not know where it came from and where it went to. I have no way of knowing what thought is and how it develops. I can only experience the intensity of it when it affects my body perspective.
I have no way of knowing what a thought is. It is either present or not.
With this I also realize (better) that there is no one in charge of the thought (well.. at least not me), no chooser (well.. at least not me),
Thought is operating totally on its own. Even worse.. I feel like being hijacked constantly by a power that I am not aware of.
And somehow I can stimulate the operating thought once it has control of me.. the perceiver. Or since it is not me, that thought stimulates itself.



How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?
I have no idea, this went completely outside my approval of choice.

[Lanimal]

Weird....
I just did the Car experiment again but no car appeared. I kept looking... instead of wandering off.. no car came.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

Okee, I formulate this wrong.. I am not looking most of the time, I am thinking about it.
The Idea Me is very present in my perception.

Nicely said, you can see that ‘I’ is not an entity that’s separate from the thought, it is just a thought, an illusion. That’s all we’re looking at here. When you wake up from a dream at night you recognize that the ‘you’ in the dream was just a character in a drama, a story, a fantasy. Likewise, when you refocus from a daydream you see the ‘I’ as just a character too, a thought.

And you’re so right – the illusion of ‘I’ is seen through when we look. But it’s totally up to you to keep looking, it doesn’t just happen by itself. Think of it like riding the crest of a wave – it takes constant attention, focus, and adjustment. If it doesn’t all come together you end up in the deep blue sea of thought. And thoughts WILL always be there, and the characters in those thoughts will always be there, the trick is seeing them for what they are.

How did that thought arrive? My easy guess is of course from the outside, from reading your statement. Which triggered the thought process. But how the thought did really arrive? I have no way of knowing.

Great, you can see that thought occurs automatically in reaction to stimuli. These stimuli can be words, pictures, sensory information, or even thoughts themselves.

With this I also realize (better) that there is no one in charge of the thought (well.. at least not me), no chooser (well.. at least not me),
Thought is operating totally on its own. Even worse.. I feel like being hijacked constantly by a power that I am not aware of.

Indeed, thought is just an automatic reaction, a reflex in response to stimuli. There is no ‘I’ separate from that experience choosing a particular car, or a color, or anything else. It’s almost mechanical.

And somehow I can stimulate the operating thought once it has control of me.. the perceiver. Or since it is not me, that thought stimulates itself.

Look at this more closely –

Is there really anything behind the perceiver, or is there just perception?

Is there really an 'I' stimulating thought, separate from the THOUGHT of an 'I' stimulating thought?

Paulo.

[Lanimal]

And somehow I can stimulate the operating thought once it has control of me.. the perceiver. Or since it is not me, that thought stimulates itself.

Look at this more closely –
Is there really anything behind the perceiver, or is there just perception?
Is there really an 'I' stimulating thought, separate from the THOUGHT of an 'I' stimulating thought?

Sometimes its difficult to say exactly what you want to say.
I wanted to say that, when thought is there and the focus is on thought then this thought machine becomes all consuming. The text above was just daydreams after an experience.

Is is good you emphasize that in "I am feeling this" the "I" as well as the three remaining "am", "feeling" and "this" are all of the same.. eh... caliber or substance. All 4 words have the same background but if you are not looking then one word seems to carry a much more energy/load then others.
When not looking I would quickly assume the "I" is something else then the "feeling" or "this". In most cases the production of a text like this would already mean I am in a mind-wander already, as I am probably not looking anymore but thinking about it.

Think of it like riding the crest of a wave – it takes constant attention, focus, and adjustment. If it doesn’t all come together you end up in the deep blue sea of thought. And thoughts WILL always be there
This is just want I needed to hear (again).
Until last year I thought once one would be 'enlightened' then forever there would be a peaceful thoughtless mind present. Illusions of course. I understand that the quality of your perception is determined by its focus and attention, and that that will indeed bring adjustments into the present.

OK! I am ready. What Is Next?!
:)