Thread for Estevita

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Estevita

It is a joy to read your answers, they seem so clear to me.
Interesting to see how, without the stories, we see so much more of what is going on.
Your correction looks spot on to me.

The question about body was an invitation to look into what is label and what is experience. Is there a body to be found or is there only sensation and the seen, and any link between the two a thought imputation ?

Could you answer the following questions to see if they throw up anything further to look into. Please do not use Buddhist terminology as other guides from non Buddhist back grounds may have questions for you

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Estevita]

Hello Richard

I hope you are having a good holiday.

I am sorry I have not been in touch. I am taking my time over the six questions, really being with them and reflecting on my answers. For some of the answers I am cutting and pasting from previous postings but reflecting on the answers I gave you then, and altering as appropriate.

Will be in touch soon.

With my deepest gratitude

Estevita

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Estevita

Thank you for letting me know and that's absolutely fine. Take your time. There are no right or wrong answers. Just more exploration of experience.
I had been thinking i should have said you have answered a lot of the questions previously and it is fine to use the same stuff again, as long as it still fits with your current experience.
It sounds like you are doing exactly that.

Best wishes, Richard
I am in a motel now and from tonight will be camping so not sure about internet access

[Estevita]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Through looking, it is clear that there is a body and its sensations (sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, thoughts) which enable Being (a moment to moment natural response to the present) - that is real. What is not real are the thoughts of 'self', 'me' 'I'. What I assumed was 'I' all my life was a continuous and habitual thought stream and labeling that keeps coming back to 'self', 'me' 'I'. There never was a 'self', 'me' 'I', it is acquired. I have a nine month old granddaughter, Sophia, and it was a joy to witness her experience of the world in the first few months, there was no 'selfing' at all. In her experience, there was no difference between her leg and the leg of a table. I am witnessing the process of separation in her now. (From now on, I am hardly going to put speech marks around the words 'I', 'me', 'self' etc, as it is cumbersome. Just take it as a given that when I use these words, I am not referring to me as a separate entity.)

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is the identification with a continuous and habitual thought patterning and labeling that creates an illusionary separation between 'me' and the rest of experience and blocks the unfolding of the present moment.

I can see how it is starting with Sophia. It was a wonder to see the moment when she realised that the movement of her hand had something to do with her. She would move her hand and be entranced by it, realising for the first time that 'she' could make 'her' hand open and close. I notice how all of us, when we are showing her how a toy works or when we are passing the page whilst reading a book, say, 'Sophia do it'. She is already getting a clear picture that when the word 'Sophia' is uttered, it has something to do with 'her' separate from her mum, dad or anyone else. As I am writing this, I can feel my heart contracting at the thought that she is learning what at some point (I hope) she will have to unlearn.

How the separate self works from my own experience - through various conditioning factors in my early childhood, I unconsciously internalised not just the idea of an 'I' but qualities that pertained to that 'I' (I am not good enough, not worthy, not lovable, not acceptable, etc). Looking back, I can see the reasons why this happened but, as a child, I did not have the powers of reasoning, just the will to survive. That will to survive served me well but made these disturbing thoughts go subterranean so that I could get on with the business of living. But these disturbing thoughts as well as other selfing thoughts developed into a continuous and habitual thought patterning and labelling that I associated with 'me'. They tyranically ruled my life and determined my behaviour. These disturbing thoughts have been popping up all my life, I've half seen them, but shame concealed them from me and others and made me work all the harder in trying to prove that I am good enough, worthy, lovable, acceptable. So many times in my life, these disturbing thoughts, this shame (which I was trying to unconsciously control but over which I had no control whatsoever) led to so much suffering for me and for those around me.

All of this brings me to 7th January this year. After having observed a very distressing death on 24th December 2011, where the person involved knew she was dying, refused to accept it and couldn't let go at the point of death, my whole world shattered into pieces. I wasn't sure what was going on for me. I wasn't working so I allowed the process to take its natural course throughout the whole of 2012. I was just waiting for the pieces to go back together in the way they needed to, rather than me trying to 'control' them. What kept coming back to me over and over again was the fact that she could not let go at the point of death. On 7th January I realised that what shattered me was not that she could not let go but that I CAN'T LET GO. When I reflected on what is it that I cannot let go of, I saw an edifice called 'my self' as clear as daylight, layer by layer. Bottom layer is that I have a need and longing to be loved and accepted, above that is the layer of fear - that I will not be loved and accepted (this has been the driving force, the tyrant, that has guided the whole of my life!!!), next layer up is the mask I have put to myself and the world - working hard to be lovable and acceptable, next layer up is unbearable tension in my body trying to hold all of this 'stuff' together, and top layer is an addiction to keeping this fixed self view in place (everything else is impermanent except the fact that I am not worthy, lovable, acceptable etc). On 7th January, it is almost as if something scooped up every aspect of the label 'I' and slapped it round my face and said 'Look at it! See it for what it is!'.

On 10th January, the edifice crumbled and I saw that beneath all those layers there was just the Oneness of Life. I saw that the present moment is full of Infinite Love and it became clear to me that 'I' don't need love, because beyond the illusionary 'self' all experience partakes of this Infinite Love.

But the experience was not complete. With your guidance Richard, the realisation has gone to the next step. Now, not only has every aspect of the label 'I' been scooped up and been seen for what it is, but I feel in my bones and in my cells that there is nothing else left, there is nothing behind the illusion called 'I' except habitual thoughts and labelling, which still emerge but without the same effect. I had read about and reflected on non-self for the past 24 years but got used to the idea that seeing through it took aeons, so it was as if it was something that had nothing to do with my present reality. Lack of understanding, trust and confidence belittled the experience. Thanks to your guidance, the significance of those experiences in January have become clear, they weakened the concept of a 'self'. Your guidance has provided me with the opportunity to look behind that edifice and see that there is nothing pertaining to 'self' there. It has now become experientially evident that there is a body and its sensations (sight, sound, taste, touch, smell, thoughts) which enable Being (a moment to moment response to the present) but nothing I can hang the label 'I' to, and for that I am eternally grateful.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Seeing someone at the point of death clinging on to the will to live led to a period of about a year and a half where I was overwhelmed by despair at the core of my being. At some level, I knew this was part of the unfolding and I accepted it, although the sinking feeling in my heart was sometimes hard to bear. Seeing that there is no 'self' has lifted this overwhelming despair so that I am feeling lighter, more joyous and much more present. When the sinking feeling arises (which it still does) I am able to be with it in a much lighter manner and let it pass because I know it is not 'me', it is just sensations unfolding.

A few days ago on my birthday, my son and his girlfriend took Phil and I out for lunch. She, as usual, directed most of her attention to Phil and mostly left me out of her field of vision as she spoke. When I was so caught up with the 'self', which silently whispered in my ear that I was not good enough, not lovable, not acceptable, I would get caught up with emotions around being left out by her and others and all sorts of thoughts would knot themselves up. On my birthday, I could see what was happening, it's no big deal, she gets on better with Phil than with me, she is quite an introvert and so is Phil, and that's OK. The overall feeling-tone that started to come up was one of pain (not emotion) but I caught it as it was arising and I calmly sat there observing what was going on. There was discomfort but the emotional pull was not there!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The realisation that 'I' control nothing, that there is just experience unfolding, probably was the most important factor in this process. I have spent hours in my garden in the last few weeks just observing and experientially understanding that life is unfolding, moment by moment without 'me' controlling it. The peace that comes with this understanding is very precious.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

There isn't an 'I' so there is no one to decide, intend, choose, control events in Life, to make things happen. I had a realisation a couple of months ago that all there is, is the Oneness of Life and everything else is conditioned arising, no one to control or make things happen, just experience arising and passing due to conditions. The question above is referring to 'events' in Life. Events happen and there is no individual choice. I did not choose to be at the bedside of the person dying mentioned above, it was just circumstances that brought me there, I did not choose to shatter into a thousand pieces, I did not choose to have the realisation in January this year that it is 'I' that cannot let go. All of that was just Life unfolding due to conditions.

So, no, I do not decide, intend, choose, control events in Life. But, the human body is gifted with the thinking faculty, that gets us from A to B (but also gets us into a lot of trouble!!!), and this is a tool, a tool that responds to the stimulus of body/sensations and Being. I started to reflect on this - I am hungry, so I eat, I am not controlling that but I can choose, for example, soup rather than a sandwich for lunch. There was an element of choice in signing up to LU, I debated whether to or not and then decided to sign up. When visiting my son in Northumberland, I can choose to drive up the A1 or the M1. Are these choices or are they spontaneous responses to sensations in the moment, dependent on conditions? More experiential observation is needed here.

6) Anything to add?

Just a deep and heartfelt thank you for your dedication to my process Richard. I cannot believe how committed you are to helping me. It is exceptional and I feel very fortunate.

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Estevita

So, no, I do not decide, intend, choose, control events in Life. But, the human body is gifted with the thinking faculty, that gets us from A to B (but also gets us into a lot of trouble!!!), and this is a tool, a tool that responds to the stimulus of body/sensations and Being. I started to reflect on this - I am hungry, so I eat, I am not controlling that but I can choose, for example, soup rather than a sandwich for lunch. There was an element of choice in signing up to LU, I debated whether to or not and then decided to sign up. When visiting my son in Northumberland, I can choose to drive up the A1 or the M1. Are these choices or are they spontaneous responses to sensations in the moment, dependent on conditions? More experiential observation is needed here.

I'll throw you a few questions which i hope will aid your experiential observation....

Is the choice to eat different from the choice of what to eat ?
What is making choices (is there anything separate from the process of life) ?
Is there anything making choices in the direction the thinking process goes in ?

It is always an honour to guide some one. Particularly some one who is ready to look

[Estevita]

Dear Richard

Thank you for the questions you sent, reflection on them and observing my direct experience have helped clarify the issue of making choices.

Is the choice to eat different from the choice of what to eat ?

On the way to the station yesterday, crossing the Green, I was absorbed in looking at the patterns of the sun and the shade on the emerald green grass and the teaching: 'there is no distinction between the seer, the seen and the seeing' came to mind. It became clear that if I am making distinctions between the seer/seen (or the choice to eat/what to eat) I am in story land and not in the present moment. All there is, is the present moment - the seeing, the hearing etc. It is that that connects us with all of existence.

What is making choices (is there anything separate from the process of life) ?

No, there is nothing separate from the process of life. In looking, it has become evident that there is only the Oneness of Life, one continual process of arising and passing, experience unfolding. So making choices is just part of this moment by moment unfolding.

Is there anything making choices in the direction the thinking process goes in ?

In looking, it has become evident that there is no driver, no one looking for the driver. So there is nothing making choices in the direction the thinking process goes in. The thinking process takes us away from the present moment, from reality. And more, the thinking process, the story line is not creative but reactive, no choices there!

Conditioned patterning is insidious!

I hope you are enjoying your holidays, some excellent camping weather is on the way.

With much gratitude.

Estevita

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Estevita, hope things are good with you .

All there is, is the present moment - the seeing, the hearing etc. It is that that connects us with all of existence.

Can anything else can be known to exist other than sense experience (including thought) ?
All else is only known as thought content, yes ?

The other thing i thought it might be useful for you to look at is the idea of conditioned arising. It is a very useful tool for explaining the nature of things. I still find it useful. But what happens when we examine this idea in direct experience ? When sense experience is observed directly there is simply whatever appearance presents itself. Can you find any reason outside the content of thought for things to be appearing as they are ?

The holiday is going great thank you. We are doing some great climbing and walking in the Ecrin Alps near the Italian Border.

With love, Richard

[Estevita]

Dear Richard

I am glad you are having a good holiday, it sounds wonderful. I had the whole family staying last week which meant I have had little time to write but lots to note and observe.

Can anything else can be known to exist other than sense experience (including thought) ?
All else is only known as thought content, yes ?

I had a strong realisation the other evening, a 'knowing' that there is no external world, I am part of it all, the process unfolding moment by moment.

So, I have sat in my garden reflecting on the question above and came up with the following. What is absolutely real is feeling warmth, seeing movement, hearing buzzing, thinking holiday. It becomes thought content when I start labeling it: the sun feels warm on my left foot, the blade of grass is moving in the wind, the wasp is buzzing in my ear, sun and the sound of chirping bring up thoughts of the island of Gozo.

So, nothing else can be known to exist other than sense experience (thought being a sixth sense). And yet the thought content does not disappear, it just loses its grip. I was overwhelmed a few days ago by that familiar sensation of despair and I managed to say as it arose, 'these are just sensations arising and passing, it is not 'me' despairing.' So the feeling was acknowledged but I did not get caught up in it and it passed after a while. I did not build up a story around it, or wondered what was causing it, etc, thereby fixing the sensation as something that was happening to 'me'.

So, there is a strong 'knowing' that nothing else can be known to exist other than sense experience, but the thought content has not spent itself out yet. The thought content keeps repeating but I am able to get back to that gut feeling of 'me' controlling nothing and then the thought content has less of an effect.

The other thing I thought it might be useful for you to look at is the idea of conditioned arising. It is a very useful tool for explaining the nature of things. I still find it useful. But what happens when we examine this idea in direct experience ? When sense experience is observed directly there is simply whatever appearance presents itself. Can you find any reason outside the content of thought for things to be appearing as they are ?

This is quite a revelation. You are absolutely right. Conditioned arising is a product of thought content (although useful). I cannot find any reason outside the content of thought for things to be appearing as they are. There is just hearing, seeing, touching etc. I do not have to find a reason for it...and I am tired of reasoning, trying to understand with the mind. It is so refreshing to just be, just to enjoy the hearing, the seeing, the thought arising and passing without trying to control anything. All that reasoning, all that thinking has been a heavy load indeed and it feels as if I am learning how to put it down. What a relief!!!

With much love and gratitude.

Estevita