Charlie Looking for a Guide +

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

Good answers, thank you. I'm glad the pointers helped.

OK; before, that was totally missed! And now, "what the hell is 'pressure'?" There IS a felt sense - sensations - called "pressure." Silvia, as look back on those words, the thought comes: "It's just a knee-jerk reaction." "I've" felt this cluster of sensations for so long, it's just [oh-oh] 2nd nature to call it "pressure."

Tell me, is there anything wrong with labels?

When you point it out, it's obvious that "being on it" is just intention (or whatever) coming up on it's own. And, "I" taking credit for it after the fact. (I'm just starting to see that it's kinda fun to see all this stuff just going on along on it's own! "Good Gawd, what's next?")

This is a very good realisation Charlie and I'd like you to explore this a bit more. So stuff is just going along on its own, that's right! And then there is this habit of "appropriating" what happen as "I". I did that. I thought that. I saw that. I decided that. etc..

Examine your direct experience that way, thoughts, sensations and the sense of being. Watch how they happen and how almost immediately there arises this habit of appropriating what happens. Let me know how it goes.

No. At least there is an ongoing looking, hoping for more moments of clarity. There doesn't seem to be impetus to "get enlightened" anymore. But, there IS a continuing want to see this toothache, hip, mouth (unpleasant) sensations as just passing stuff. And the hoping that eventual clarity will put Spiritual Bypassing and early morning depression in perspective.

It's good that you noticed these expectations. But I'm afraid there is not guarantee that any of of those things that you want to happen will happen. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm being honest. You need to be clear on what your main motivation to see through the illusion is. Is it to ease the pain of being alive or is it to see the truth? There is nothing wrong per se in wanting to be happier, but as long as that is your main motivation you will keep coming up to a wall and running around in circles. You will keep wondering why is this not working? And the answer is, because searching for the wrong thing. Ignoring what's right in front of you in favour of pursuing a fantasy that seems preferable and then wondering why the fantasy is not becoming reality. Once you're main motivation is to see the truth then, pam! you're there. It's the path of least resistance.
So what are you looking for Charlie?

Much love
Silvia

[charlieaa]

Hi Silvia,

Congratulations! Rule Britannica!

Tell me, is there anything wrong with labels?

It now looks like NO. They keep coming up. There was an effort to suppress them, earlier. Now, it looks like they're part of the human condition. There's no way some "I" charlie guy is going to stop them. However, many labels seem to be useful/indispensable in navigating and communicating in this world. But, this habitual, conditioned mind often attends to emotional/opinionated stories inside some labels. Day by day, this is being seen more often. And with that is being felt some spaciousness/distance.

So stuff is just going along on its own, that's right! And then there is this habit of "appropriating" what happen as "I". I did that. I thought that. I saw that. I decided that. etc.
Examine your direct experience that way, thoughts, sensations and the sense of being. Watch how they happen and how almost immediately there arises this habit of appropriating what happens. Let me know how it goes.

Well, so far, it goes somewhat sporadically. Since "I'm" not "doing" it, all that seems to be happening is an arising resolve to read your words above, +

Examine your direct experience

then go about business. What seems to be happening is that there IS more frequent watching - and there is clarity that the "'I' did that..." thought comes up and, when it is remembered,

the sense of being.

This sense seems slippery - there arises - after a couple of seconds - an attempt to add "meaning." But, that is being noticed, too. So, that's how it's going.

Your last paragraph has lots of pointers that is felt need to be absorbed. There's so much to LOOK at. It's in process. So far, some answers are coming.

So what are you looking for Charlie?

That question led to poring over Ilona's essay (blogspot) on Expectations, and, as you had me do originally, had to write again what the expectations are now. The last two days have been "digging" into who/what is expecting what. It feels like this looking is at least another day away from an intelligible, honest response. Then you can slap me with the zen stick. (OK, if not before.)

Oh My! Dear Silvia is just a body/mind responding from a shift in perception (with kindness.)

An ongoing Thank You for your patience.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

Yes, a woman had a baby yesterday. Incredible, isn't it?

It now looks like NO.

Ok, so why did you think they were bad before??

And what do you mean by "looks" like. Arey the good? or are they bad?

Who makes the labelling happen?

There was an effort to suppress them, earlier.

Why did you think you should suppress them??

Are you in control of the labelling?

Silvia x

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

I hope you're well.

I see you've stopped posting daily.

Is there anything getting in the way?

Much love

Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Hi Silvia,

Thank You for checking in with me.

Ill health - perfect storm kind of events - visitors/obligations interfering. BUT, the "work" continues no matter what + am feeling a need to review your pointers of the last week. Lots of LOOKING. After breakfast, this morning, I'm posting.

Have a nice afternoon.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

Sorry to hear you've been feeling unwell.

Why do you need to check my pointers from last week? Do you think they will bring you the answers you want?

How about you just try to answer to my last post from direct experience? Put your trust in your own experience. You don't need anything else.

Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Silvia,
"...Check pointers...": here are the thoughts that come up right now about your question: • thoughts/emotions/feelings/reactions come up that are repetitive - often, what comes with them is the thought/question "we've already been thru this - what was that AHA moment/thought last time??" So, review. • another thought that comes with them is: "Oh, gawd, I don't want to drag Silvia thru the same old sh*t on this. What were the questions/pointers last time that can allow a re-seeing this time?" • Right now, I remember you had mentioned that I might be thinking the process should be unfolding other than it is.

I don't know what to "do." Are you suggesting to just post spontaneously without availing of our recent pointers?

"How about you just try to answer to my last post from direct experience? Put your trust in your own experience. You don't need anything else."

OK. Scary!! What if I screw up!!?? HaHa

Still breakfasting . . . soon will answer your post of the 23rd.

charlie

[charlieaa]

Hi Silvia,

I'm having problems formatting this. Bear with me. It all gets answered.

Tell me, is there anything wrong with labels?

It now looks like NO.

And what do you mean by "looks" like. Arey the good? or are they bad?

There was an effort to suppress them, earlier.
Why did you think you should suppress them??

Ok, so why did you think they were bad before??

"looks like" It seems to be just an expression but, I'll write on re the other questions and let's see if it gets answered:
My introduction to non-duality was thru a tape of Adyashanti (4 yrs ago) in which "I got" that concepts overlay direct experience. Big AHA for me. So, I thought I should suppress concepts so to "see the real world as it is and wake up from the dream. That something marvelous called "pure awareness" could be accessed then." I did get at that time that the mind (just a thought stream) is a machine that creates and manipulates concepts - that's all it's capable of - that's what it's for - to navigate the world for the human being. When we here used the term "labels" it was a perfect fit. When we started, I had the notion that I s/b, I don't know, "not take anything the mind throws up seriously." That morphed into "suppress labels - labels are bad, can't wake up if I'm lost in labels all the time."

Are you in control of the labelling?

Now, direct experience is that labels just come up - part of conditioning of this body/mind called charlie.(BUT, again, that direct experience is so far only felt when circumstances are that awareness of the arising labels happens.) They're not good or bad and when I try to characterize them (ooops-"characteriSe") it's yet just another label labeling a label - so to speak - lol. SOME labels seem to come with stories that the "I" thing buys into - and often there is suffering (the experience of unpleasant sensations with attending more thoughts) as a result. Sometimes, elation. But the labels themselves are just, basically, habitual thoughts arising in circumstances. There is no "I" that has any control - however much a lot of the time thoughts come up to the contrary. Direct experience right now, as I write, is that this thinking process seems to involve an underlying assumption (Silvia, what the hell is THAT??) that labeling/thoughts CAN be generated/controlled.

Who makes the labelling happen?

Whereupon, "a moment of reflection" (whatever THAT is), shows that this stuff just keeps on coming up - a thought stream - and it's all happening on it's own! At times that is really seen. Once again, a trip to the mirror confirms: there's just this impersonal body thing - and for some moments it was hilarious watching it go thru it's blinking, with it's hair sticking out - somehow with and attendant consciousness-type thing. Then, in the next moment, charlie's back. And more labels/concepts: "I s/b mindful all the time." HELP!! THIS is where I want to go back and review what we've said before. You have given pointers on just this - and "I" have forgotten them. That means that "I" think I can revive certain ?comfortable? stabilizing thoughts. Nope, "that's not what it's about, mate." Along with all of the above comes, now, a dropping away of the "pure awareness" aspiration. I'm not quite absolved of it tho. A feeling of loss/discouragement - immediately known in THIS moment as I write that there are afoot thoughts/expectations - not now clearly defined.

HOWEVER, even tho the words here written are labels that are, after all just words, some reflect/arouse?? [let me use the label] painful emotions - OK. Now, in just looking at those arising labels/ideas/concepts seems to be an accompanying awareness/aversion of spiritual bypassing. So, what's happening now - recently - is a going into the felt emotion/sensation. OK, Why?? Not sure. But, not knowing is OK, too. Just go into the not knowing.

AND, speaking expectations and reviews:

Have another look to the questions in my previous post and see if anything else comes out today. Follow the pointers. Watch out for expectations. Just be with what happens.

(S7-19)

Finally, my ongoing honest review/digging of your's and Ilona's pointers/questions on Expectations seems to be in order. As you said:

So what are you looking for Charlie?

(S7-20) - another zinger. As I write my answers, it feels like layers of bullshit fall away. Of course you may have something to point out on that.

It's kicking me off - I'm saving a lot - but I better post this loooong rant - but clearing, too.

You got spontaneous with all it's warts.

If my health improves, Plein Aire Watercolor tomorrow morning, Beethoven ++ Saturday, ALL with increasing looking at direct experience.

Have a pleasant evening!!

Charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

That's right! Labels are neither good or bad. They just are. And they're bloody useful too! How would we communicate here without labels??? How would you say pass me an apple without labels? Even pass me that thing that is sort of round and red, that fell from a tree, requires lots of labels, right? And how would you get rid of them anyway, when clearly you're not making them happen or in control?

The "problem" is when we mistake the label or concept for the beginning and end of it. Take an object an look at it for 5 minutes. Just look. Do you know what you are looking at? Do you think that the name of the object or the labels used to describe it acutally describe anything? Do they give you any insight into the nature of the object?


Is awareness of labels not pure awareness? Is awareness of contraction, or pain, or doubt, or joy or pleasure, or dreams or dellusions or insight not pure awareness? Is this wonderful pure awareness something different and outside your experience right now?

We are not trying to get rid of "I" thoughts either. Thinking they will/should stop happening is another expectation. The point is to see thoughts for what they are. So the thought "I should be more mindful" pops up. Did you make the thought happen? Is it proof that there is a separate you? If a thought pops up that "unicorns are beautiful creatures" Is that proof that unicorns exist? Would you feel the need to suppress or get rid of unicorn thoughts in order to see that they don't exist?

In somebody else, I would say, no problem go back to past posts or read LU articles or other threads, but in your case, I'm putting you on a strict diet of direct experience and nothing else. If I mention sp bypassing, you run to read an article about it, if I ask you about expectations you go read an article by Ilona, I ask a question and you need to check past pointers before you answer. I could be wrong, but I sense a pattern. You rely too much on what other people say. From now on you trust your own experience and nothing else. Got it? You already have all the answers, you just need the courage to trust your own looking.

Love x

[charlieaa]

Hi Silvia,

ALL understood.

You sense the pattern exactly.

"...and nothing else." GOT IT!!

Here is being felt enthusiasm and fear (welcoming with kindness) for leaping into non-perfectionism and risk-taking. Yes, I see them for what they are. Just stories - arising naturally in this situation.

Ready for your questions, pointers.

Pleasant Saturday to you,
charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Morning Charlie,

What about the rest of the post?

That's right! Labels are neither good or bad. They just are. And they're bloody useful too! How would we communicate here without labels??? How would you say pass me an apple without labels? Even pass me that thing that is sort of round and red, that fell from a tree, requires lots of labels, right? And how would you get rid of them anyway, when clearly you're not making them happen or in control?

The "problem" is when we mistake the label or concept for the beginning and end of it. Take an object an look at it for 5 minutes. Just look. Do you know what you are looking at? Do you think that the name of the object or the labels used to describe it acutally describe anything? Do they give you any insight into the nature of the object?


Is awareness of labels not pure awareness? Is awareness of contraction, or pain, or doubt, or joy or pleasure, or dreams or dellusions or insight not pure awareness? Is this wonderful pure awareness something different and outside your experience right now?

We are not trying to get rid of "I" thoughts either. Thinking they will/should stop happening is another expectation. The point is to see thoughts for what they are. So the thought "I should be more mindful" pops up. Did you make the thought happen? Is it proof that there is a separate you? If a thought pops up that "unicorns are beautiful creatures" Is that proof that unicorns exist? Would you feel the need to suppress or get rid of unicorn thoughts in order to see that they don't exist?

You haven't answered any of the questions.

Love
Silvia x

[The-Song-Of-Me]

What's up Charlie? Talk to me.

Much love xxx

[charlieaa]

Dear Silvia,

I THOUGHT (oh-oh) I sent this!! As you cautioned, I now save a lot. And there it was - the last draft I saved. Your questions/pointers are answered. I have been so looking forward to you answers and new questions today. So, here it is without any editing from yesterday:

That's right! Labels are neither good or bad. They just are. And they're bloody useful too! How would we communicate here without labels??? How would you say pass me an apple without labels? Even pass me that thing that is sort of round and red, that fell from a tree, requires lots of labels, right?

Right!

And how would you get rid of them anyway, when clearly you're not making them happen or in control?

"Getting rid of them" is yet just another label/thought, in which is embedded the thought that some "I" can make them go away + which has come up unbidden anyway.

The "problem" is when we mistake the label or concept for the beginning and end of it. Take an object an look at it for 5 minutes. Just look. Do you know what you are looking at?

No

Do you think that the name of the object or the labels used to describe it acutally describe anything?

No

Do they give you any insight into the nature of the object?

No This is exactly the "mirror experience!" After staring at the reflection for a few minutes, labels fell away - about all that came up eventually was: "body" - but that word is just another label too. (I remember the child's game in which we repeat a word until it's meaningless. There was always a subtle exhilaration of freedom.)

Is awareness of labels not pure awareness? Is awareness of contraction, or pain, or doubt, or joy or pleasure, or dreams or dellusions or insight not pure awareness? Is this wonderful pure awareness something different and outside your experience right now?

There seems to be a difference between ever present awareness (just the background of ongoing experiencing) and the felt sense of awareness when attention is "rested upon it." As much as there is an expectation for otherwise, there is no experience of "wonderful pure awareness" in this life. Experience of sadness and frustration at this question arising now. Am NOT going to "research" it!

We are not trying to get rid of "I" thoughts either. Thinking they will/should stop happening is another expectation. The point is to see thoughts for what they are. So the thought "I should be more mindful" pops up. Did you make the thought happen? Is it proof that there is a separate you?

No - It's just a recurring thought that comes up according to various circumstances and besides, there's no such thing as a charlie to "be mindful" - whatever that is.

If a thought pops up that "unicorns are beautiful creatures" Is that proof that unicorns exist?

S, I gotta write this out, OK? "If a thought pops up that "charlie should be more mindful, is that proof that charlie exists?' NO

Would you feel the need to suppress or get rid of unicorn thoughts in order to see that they don't exist?

"Would I feel the need to suppress or get rid of charlie thoughts in order to see that charlie doesn't exist?" The right answer is NO. But, I think we've hit a nerve here. Great question.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

Good to know you are still there.

No This is exactly the "mirror experience!" After staring at the reflection for a few minutes, labels fell away - about all that came up eventually was: "body" - but that word is just another label too. (I remember the child's game in which we repeat a word until it's meaningless. There was always a subtle exhilaration of freedom.)

Lovely! I like that game! :-) So labels are useful and part of our experience but in themselves are meaningless and don't tell us anything "real".

Could you describe what happened to perception of the object once the labels fell away? Does it change in any way? When you've been looking at the object for a while, and thoughts quiet down, can you find a "me here" and an "object overthere"? Or is there just experience?

There seems to be a difference between ever present awareness (just the background of ongoing experiencing) and the felt sense of awareness when attention is "rested upon it." As much as there is an expectation for otherwise, there is no experience of "wonderful pure awareness" in this life. Experience of sadness and frustration at this question arising now. Am NOT going to "research" it!

What is this wonderful pure awareness that you are looking for? This is the bliss expectation all over again. This right now is wonderful and pure. Or rather there is no pure awareness and impure awareness. There is just awareness. It doesn't mean it's blissful all the time. Just look at This! This right now, is all there is! Until you stop looking for something else, it will be right under your nose and you will not see it. Stay where you are, with what's happening, as it's happening, just stay, Still, not trying to change, to escape, to grasp, to hold on...that's all there is.

No - It's just a recurring thought that comes up according to various circumstances and besides, there's no such thing as a charlie to "be mindful" - whatever that is.

Who thinks the Charlie thoughts?

Much love
Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Dear Silvia,
Good evening/morning (I took so long.)

Could you describe what happened to perception of the object once the labels fell away? Does it change in any way?

[First off, the urge arises "- and passes - to go look up "perception" - you know, to get it right - the pattern.lol] It seems that the act of seeing just continues as before. Colors, wrinkles, blinks,. . . go on. And there are thoughts about these "things" that come up, are recognized, and just go away when they are not entertained. Kinda nice.

When you've been looking at the object for a while, and thoughts quiet down,

The thoughts only "kind of quiet down." i.e., they change - to impersonal observations - from "damn, look at THAT wrinkle, I'm getting old," to "look at that!" (seeing a wrinkle without any sense of it being something called a "wrinkle.") And as above, both those kinds of thoughts are coming less and less.

can you find a "me here" and an "object over there"? Or is there just experience?

It's "just experience" UNTIL a thought arises that says: "Oh yeah, standing here looking in the mirror." Then, it passes. While the just seeing is occurring, there's no "me here" and an "object over there." BUT, there's no grand merging - no sense of "there's no here nor there, and Oh my gawd, ït's all one!" Just the experience of seeing that isn't even recognized until the thought arises, "Oh yeah, there WAS seeing going on just then with no entangling meaningfulnesses., Cool!

What is this wonderful pure awareness that you are looking for? This is the bliss expectation all over again. This right now is wonderful and pure. Or rather there is no pure awareness and impure awareness. There is just awareness. It doesn't mean it's blissful all the time.

In our "work" here, thoughts of "what's it going to be like - expectations - have been falling away - to the back burner - pretty much replaced by following your guidance of just looking at what's indicated - focused - nose to the grindstone. The last few days, I'm reminded of some bliss/pure awareness experience stuff only when others mention it. Only then do I experience a "Oh yeah? Is that what I'm doing? I forgot. "I" must be doing something wrong. Then, Silvia, then, the frustration and striving are dropped. Seen as just thoughts arising.

Just look at This! This right now, is all there is! Until you stop looking for something else, it will be right under your nose and you will not see it. Stay where you are, with what's happening, as it's happening, just stay, Still, not trying to change, to escape, to grasp, to hold on...that's all there is.

Yes, it is seen here that this mind thingy tries to grasp/understand/get the awareness that is always present. It is also seen at times that the mind is INSIDE the awareness and can never "get it." "My" pathetic little mind tries to throw words at what is "un-wordable" and there is felt what we call "frustration." Lately, this particular frustration - more often - is noticed for what it is, let go and returning to felt sense/direct experience of just being happens.

So, now the expectation: So what? Now what?" You write: It doesn't mean it's blissful all the time." "It's" not blissful any of the time.

Who thinks the Charlie thoughts?

They seem to be conditioned responses to circumstances. More often, they are seen as just thoughts.
Silvia, sorry to drag this out. This question has an aspect that is causing a perplexing question that keeps coming up. You use the term "Charlie thoughts." Please help. This is all in the mind - none of it actually happens. An example is best: On morning walk - early - just getting light - in residential neighborhood - stop to admire landscaping. First an "envisioning" suddenly arises - an irate homeowner appears interrogating me as to "what the hell do YOU want - what are you doing here?" then, just as suddenly - a defending, explanation of me/I - why "I'm" OK to be admiring your nice landscaping. 3rd - envisioning how it all works out - or doesn't. ALL of this seems to be a recurring pattern of creating mental situations in which "I" get to defend "me" and so be OK. The actual thought of "charlie" never comes up. It seems that charlie/I/me is all beneath the narrative. Is this kind of ?subconscious? unacknowledged "thought" a "charlie thought?"

May you In Joy a lovely Thursday.

charlie