Requesting Guidance

[Patrick]

Thanks for the very clear answers.

Is there something in control in life ?
What about cause and effect?

[Raven]

Thanks for the very clear answers.

Is there something in control in life ?
What about cause and effect?

Okay, okay, got me! Gonna hafta dump it all here:

If there’s no “me,” then obviously it’s not how it appears to be – a me making decisions, choices (“good” and “bad”), about how this life is going to go. And that would link back to the story I told in my second post…how relieved “I” was to realize that there was no me to be responsible for the mess this life has been. This was more real than anything ever experienced and recognized as the truth, even if it wasn’t the daily experience. So to extrapolate from that, although it doesn’t appear that way, it must be true that there’s no me running the show, in control. Unnerving, but at the same time very freeing because it relieves the stress of “trying” to do things right and the guilt of having f****d things up so incredibly.

But what is in control, if anything? What about individual responsibility or free will – a subject which I’ve often considered and not at all sure of? Is there something unseen pushing the agenda? Is it just life flowing? If so, then why does life keep sinking lower and lower to the lowest common denominator – talking here about violence, hatred, etc.? War, murder just happens? What kind of psycho is running the show? Yahweh :o) ???

And what about cause and effect? In light of “no me,” not sure about this either. Karma? another subject pondered and doubted. Certainly if you drink to excess and get plastered, it seems reasonable that if there was an accident the over-drinking would have caused it. Again, maybe the accident just happens and is linked by the mind back to the drinking. In younger and stupid days both my husband and I have driven under those circumstances and never had an accident (for which very thankful). Hmmm.

There have been times in this life when, clearly, things just happened on their own and have just gone with the flow without question. But then, some bad things happen this way also. Reminds me of the suggestion to “Never condemn anything God allows and nothing happens unless God allows it.” (God in this case not being the psychotic Yahweh of the Old Testament, but some kind of Consciousness from which and in which all arises. Sounds about right to me, but what do I know?)

Conclusion: It does seem that there is no one in control and no cause and effect, but will have to sit with this and give it further consideration. Help!!!

[Patrick]

For cause and effect to happen you need that somethings are related in time.
Something in the past makes that something happens now. Something now makes that something will happen in the future.
You told in a previous post that past and future don't exist. That there is only now.
There is only this moment you can't catch because it's already gone. Not even a split second long.
So how could there be cause and effect?
Is this helpfull?
Stay a while with this no-time, see how weird this is for the mind.

[Raven]

For cause and effect to happen you need that somethings are related in time.
Something in the past makes that something happens now. Something now makes that something will happen in the future.
You told in a previous post that past and future don't exist. That there is only now.
There is only this moment you can't catch because it's already gone. Not even a split second long.
So how could there be cause and effect?
Is this helpfull?
Stay a while with this no-time, see how weird this is for the mind.

OMG - You are so right!!! Past is memory and future is projection. Totally freaky!!! Will have to sit with this and see where it goes…will let you know. Many thanks.

[Raven]

Okay, been mulling this over and this is what I’ve come up with so far: It’s not that memory and projection don’t exist because they do…but in the mind and, as PTSD shows, also in the body. The “I,” which is a conflation of the mind, body and emotions is not real and, since the “I” doesn’t really exist, neither does past and future. So in the end the past and future are real and unreal…real to the “I” but unreal in actuality. So no cause and effect. You're right - weird and will have to spend more time with it. How does this sound so far?

[Patrick]

Sounds very good.

Digging a little bit further.
Does something called mind exists on itself?
What is it made from?

[Raven]

Sounds very good.

Digging a little bit further.
Does something called mind exists on itself?
What is it made from?

Hi Patrick,

The gate’s right here, got the joke! Thinking the mind is a field of information and energy that’s tapped into, nothing personal, then of all things Ch. 11 of Mark Twain’s Mysterious Stranger arose and here “I” am. Feeling amazed, excited, overcome with gratitude, discombobulated, and old patterns of doubt. Help!!!

Love,
Raven

[Patrick]

The gate’s right here, got the joke
What happened ? What is the joke?

[Raven]

The gate’s right here, got the joke
What happened ? What is the joke?

It was just so funny…of course there’s no “me,” the very idea is absurd. And yet, here “I” am. Go figure!

[Patrick]

What is this 'I AM' ?

[Raven]

What is this 'I AM' ?

“I AM” is inexplicable..."a finger pointing to the moon."
“I am” is the illusory self…mistaken identity.

[Patrick]

Ready for the final questions or is there some doubt to clear up?

[Raven]

Ready for the final questions or is there some doubt to clear up?

Ready.

[Patrick]

Hi Raven,
Could you answer the following questions as clear as possible in your own words.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Raven]

Important questions, so sat with them a while:

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate “I,” “self,” “me,” anywhere to be found, in any way shape or form and there never was…the concept of an individual “me” is an illusion, albeit a persistent one.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is contained within the idea of a doer, the decider in one’s life. It’s a combination of how the senses function and conditioning by a society totally ignorant of the truth, thus passing the illusion on from generation to generation. From experience, there was overwhelming pressure to be different and yet an extension of the parent with no boundaries: So there’s little chance of recognizing that it’s all a lie because the conditioning goes so deep, sort of like The Truman Show. And yet, amazingly, it happens. Suffering, which is entirely due to ignorance, is a great impetus to search for the truth.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

This is very freeing. It was experienced many years ago and didn’t “stick.” The two wings of a bird are necessary: experience AND knowledge. Had the experience but not the knowledge, then over the years it was all intellectually understood but not experienced, so it was dry. The dialogue helped to put all the disparate knowledge together so it could be seen as a whole. Feel somehow lighter, freer, definitely less stressed. There’s not the singing and dancing there was the first time, but somehow it’s more stable, deeper.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Started contemplating the question about the mind, became aware of the endless mind kaka, and all of a sudden there was a very subtle nudge and it opened up.

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Life happens, flows, there’s no decider, no controller: this morning, with careful observation this was clear and very simple, and it has been seen many times before. Have always heard “you’re not the doer,” now it’s experienced. The “ego I” always blamed “me” for the difficulties, illness, “mistakes,” etc., making suffering acute. Brutal – and gone!

Anything to add?

What a great experience! The motto “question everything” was a perfect fit for this process, for which there is eternal gratitude. BTW, learned about the GatelessGate from a reviewer of one of Jed McKenna’s books at Amazon.

Patrick, many, many thanks!!!

With great love,
Raven