confusion. someone willing to guide?

[waterdog]

Hi!

Lets talk about a "doer", is there a "doer"?, is somebody who is doing things?
what thoughts come about the responsibility, about the free will?
is somebody in control of what happen?

Everything happens. there is no start. it is like a long reaction with no start or end, or like only one happening that stays forever and never changes or never lasts. it is like a long hellooo! hi! hi! or goodbye! bye! bye!
on an intellectual level i see that there is no i. the thoughts and feelings happens and the body contains of substances that impacts the experience and it is dependent to everything that exists and therefore there can be no doer. the movements of the bodies and the thoughts determines wich bodies and thoughts that will get to exist and therefore it can be no doer.
but when I think of "other people" then there is thoughts of doers. then there are sometimes restlessness and hierarchies too. but when I look for myself, I havent seen that. but maybe it is easier to "look" in some positions, but of course that is only speculation. it is probably the thought of doers itself that creates the thoughts of hierarchies and restlessness. there are no positions, there are only one angle. even if "people" talk about other points of views.

"who" is afraid of being afraid? there is not another thought?

that is a feeling of resistance to look. when there are glimpses of truth and "I" start to like those sensations or thoughts, to prefer them over other sensations or thoughts, then there is an illusion of an "I", thoughts of that someone inside can choose or prefer or compare different sensations or thoughts. like life can be good or bad. life is only life!

It may just be in the "presence" of those thoughts?... who is in presence... nobody... the "presence" i'm talk about simply exist...
so... stay in "presence" of that feelings, of that thoughts, now there is a knowledge of there is not "you"

yes, but no! there is no knowledge. already gone! just a thought. clinging on to experiences of the past, forever gone. that is truth right now. but of course, how could I (not I) not be in the "presence" of simply existing...

lets talk about the body and "mind"
somehow the body and mind form an "I"?
if true ... In what way there is that "I"?,
Is it a concept?, Anything real?, Is something that actually exists?

The "I" is a concept, experiences from the past creating expectations on the future. but when i look, i see that those experiences are not anymore, the only thing that I know from direct experience is thoughts and sensations. And then there is an illusion of that the preferences creates an I, but I think it is........ blablabla! no! to much thinking. trying to create something real. something to believe in. something that will stay true. there is no one to save here! already alive.
Anyway. I dont know who I am, because the past is gone forever and the future is unknown. SO I cannot be someone. Trying to be someone is for nothing. It is Life. Life is live.

things happens, then other things happens. the old things dont determine the new. because they are gone forever. BUT they do determine the new. because nothing is new. everything is just the same in different ways.
this thinking leads to nowhere. but there is nowhere to go.

maybe doing something instead, drinking tea. understanding nothing. feeling the confusion. tasting the tea. thinking of that this body should not be late to work because then there will probably be pain inside of it (feeling of guilt). to what? trying to avoid something. who could be avoiding it? what is there to avoid? will keep looking this evening.

Love!

Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

thanks for you post!, great!

I can see the tone of your conversation completely changed.
is more peace there? (.... what is peace!?)

We can explore any thoughts arises, either one you want to watch closely. there is no rush!

for now I'd like to talk about the "others":
is there an entity within "you" called "I"? if the answer is not... how is there such entity in "the others"?
there is a separation between that "you" and everything else? in which form is that separation?
how is "the others" functioning?, they have the control of things... included "you"?
do "you" have the control of situations?, what if "you" have no control?, how it's feel?

if you want add something... feel free to do!

Best Regards!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

Yes, there is more of a let go feeling right now.
peace is still here :) nothing has changed.

since i can not find an i, now when looking, of course there can be no others. because "they" are gone, never were. everything is just new things happening. life. i think that there are other bodies with feelings and thoughts, and maybe (probably) thoughts about entitys and control, but there cannot be any entity or anyone in control. not when looking from here at least. because everything is just happening and nobody knows what is to come. i want to look more deep into this though. how could i ever know about the other bodies?? i just assume they are like this body.
there is separation because it is only posible to feel inside of one body, and the thoughts are spinning in one head. i see other bodies and other heads but do not know what they are.
i know this isnt about feeling good, it feels good to more watch things happening, and to go with what is happening rather than to struggle... maybe it is the wrong thing? no it cant be the wrong thing, but i mean, maybe it is just a haunt of sensations? it will probably show.
the separation is in a physical and mental form.
the separation exists, i dont do it. it just is. it is more like i am alone. like i do not know, but assume things about the world around.
nobody is in control right now, i dont really know how things happen. is there a plan? like a prophecy :)?
if nobody is doing anything and everything just happens then it is like nothing is happening.
what about time?

if "i" have no control, feels like, oh... i wonder what is happening here? it is like exploring the moment without judgement or struggle to make things in a different way. not having to think about how to make things alright all the time. it already is alright, there is no responsibility, still there is no carelessness. more like more empathy to everything. not just som things, but to everything that is happening. without trying to sort out any hierarchies between all that is. there is still urge, but now it is easier to listen. like things are inside me and without me.

Lots of regards!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi!

good!... let it be!, be "present", just looking the thoughts, the feelings, sensations..., still there... lets the sounds occurs, the thoughts occurs, everything is just happen.

... there is separation because it is only posible to feel inside of one body,

yes... the "feel" is inside that body and inside this body too, and inside the body of everybody, and then the "feel" is feeling everywhere, what is the common to everywhere?: the "feelings", the "experience"... the awareness of that. The question is: how Do You feel the separation!?, look using a direct experience to see how is that separation, between "this" and... what other?, between "this" and "that" (what is this and what is that?).

...it is more like i am alone. like i do not know, but assume things about the world around.
nobody is in control right now, i dont really know how things happen.

if you feel: "I am alone"... "I dont know"... you feel "you" are... you exist... then... how is possible there is nobody in control... then something is amiss.
what feeling arise when you read "nobody is in control right now"?

is there a plan? like a prophecy :)?

what do you think?, there is a plan? from whom?, what is the purpose?

if nobody is doing anything and everything just happens then it is like nothing is happening.

yes it's like..., it's like that phrase: "nothing and everything is the same"... who knows!, maybe is all and nothing at the same time... the important is: How do you feel that?

there is still urge, but now it is easier to listen. like things are inside me and without me.

here is exactly like that

Best regards!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hello Jorge!

Thank you for your reply.

what is the common to everywhere?: the "feelings", the "experience"... the awareness of that. The question is: how Do You feel the separation!?, look using a direct experience to see how is that separation, between "this" and... what other?, between "this" and "that" (what is this and what is that?).

It seems uncetrain, I can not be sure what the other things are experiencing. but it also feels like it just is separation. i do not feel that i have to do anything about it right now, or that i can do anything about it. i am a piece. everything is in the same position.

what feeling arise when you read "nobody is in control right now"?

wow! this is cool, how will everything go? - that feeling

what do you think?, there is a plan? from whom?, what is the purpose?

there is the possibility that everything has to be in ONE way and that this long chain of reactions is predetermined. but as i see it it is impossible to calculate it, though it is SO EXTREMELY detailed, i mean, EVERYTHING is inside it. still it can only be in one way. like there was no time or room.
i think it just is, and I DONT KNOW. but right now i see "myself" as part of it and as equal to the rest.

a part of me :( says: no no, this is just a mind game! ...but it is a mind game! even if i think of something else, it is a mind game. still only thoughts and feelings. who is thinking? does it have to be in another way? no! it is still real, even though it will be gone and never was.

Love!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

I can not be sure what the other things are experiencing

you can not sure "what is experience", but you can be sure there is experience everywhere

i do not feel that i have to do anything about it right now, or that i can do anything about it.

for sure "you" can do nothing about it, you can look if there is there is "others" entities somewhere

i am a piece. everything is in the same position.

No... you are not a piece, "you" don't exist... and when you realize that (there is nothing there) you see there is no separation... and can't be, because the "separation" come from the thought "I", we must drop the belief structure, that structure has the base in the belief "I". when the belief structure fall away, then we can to start to see.

i think it just is, and I DONT KNOW. but right now i see "myself" as part of it and as equal to the rest.

yes "it just is"
"you" as "yourself" are not part of this... like a drop of water in the ocean saying "i am part of this ocean" is that trou? well... in a way... in the way of the mind, and that way is the way of separation, of the possessions and wars, etc.
when there is not a "You" then there are only one thing: THIS

a part of me :( says: no no, this is just a mind game! ...but it is a mind game! even if i think of something else, it is a mind game. still only thoughts and feelings. who is thinking? does it have to be in another way? no! it is still real, even though it will be gone and never was.

Yes, that is a mind game... what the mind is saying is a mind game...
who is thinking?... nobody!... you answer to me... who is raining?... the rain and the though have a cause: says perhaps the cloud... "I make it rain!, therefore I am!". the cloud exist... but there is not an "I"

There is a possibility, to stop playing games and Look!
only be present and look!, there is not mind, there is not games, there is only THIS.... can be?

Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

I dont understand...

you can not sure "what is experience", but you can be sure there is experience everywhere

is there experience everywhere? i cant see that. i see the table, i see the body, thoughts and feel one body and can assume there are experience and thoughts connected to other bodies.

There is a possibility, to stop playing games and Look!
only be present and look!, there is not mind, there is not games, there is only THIS.... can be?

yes, keep on looking. looking beyond the belief structure. trying to see what is. that i'm not trying. not dealing, just looking.

all the best!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

I would like to know where you have come at this time, what conclusions you get from all the conversation we've had so far.

Please explain to me if there is a separate entity, which is called "I".

What do you "see" when you looking?

where is the "I" when "you choose" rise your hand?.
do the experiment... rise the hand, look, be present, use your "direct experience" from the senses, where or what is the entity which is in control of the movement of the hand, doing the hand move


With Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

this is what came out when writing, now seeing there are games going on but still posting it because it came out.

When looking I se an I. I am sick right now and not feeling well and it seems that everything we talked about is gone. It was just a mind game. Now I am back in old wheeltracks. Feeling guilt and sad because everything is as it is. But deep inside I know it is right as it should be. Deep inside I know that there are only thoughts and feelings. No I. But cannot understand how people can work so much against each other. but if there are no me and no other then nobody is working against anything, everything is just happening. dont really understand right now. just look and look for the i but cannot find it. cannot find anyone else either, but I am sick and feel lonly, but know that everything is as it should and that there is no lonliness. still feel it. i get touched when my mum is helping me when i am sick, thinking of all the times i made her wrong, all the times she has helped me. maybe i hurted her... maybe she could have had it better. i'm crying inside. but knowing that this is what happened and this is what is happening and that everything is as it should. just wishing i could be with her without worries.
when raising the hand, the entity seems to be inside the head. because it is a thought. when thinking of my mum the entity seems to be in the chest, as a feeling. still there is no entity of me. it is the mind and body trying to survive, to orientate among everything in the world.
the body is experimenting, dont know why it wants to know if there is an I. why would the body do that experiment if there was no I? Dont know.
or why would it even in the first place think of an I?
still when doing things, it seems clear that everything around, happening, leads to thoughts and feelings that leads into "my" actions. dont feel like there is an I choosing.
Now I have been out for a walk. It felt clear, and when I looked around I saw things, but felt no separation. Dont know what feelings or thoughts are going on inside my mum or anyone but knowing that we are in this together, nobody is in control or in a position to judge, nobody is choosing anything or trying to gain anything. it is just minds and thoughts, and there is nothing to gain because life is everywhere.
just caring more about that specific body, wanting it to be healthy and happy and together with everything (knowing it already is) but wanting it to think good thoughts!
Not feeling lonly right now, feeling sick but in the right place.
The last couple of days I have felt like I have been drawing long lines. Watching things happening without getting lost in feelings or thoughts. Not trying or choosing. breathing through things. not in doubt. nothing personal, just life everywhere, living, moving things and even sometimes watching signs and thoughts of separation without getting attatched!

Love!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma

Thanks for your post.

Sometimes life seem to be hard and rough, and it also seems that we are alone when things get tough. if you look closely it's not always true, it is not true that the issues are complicated, and "we" are never alone.
who is who qualifies things rough and hard?, who is it that has that perspective on life in this moment?, who is having problems or having bad times?, is not it what we are investigating?

The last couple of days I have felt like I have been drawing long lines. Watching things happening without getting lost in feelings or thoughts. Not trying or choosing. breathing through things. not in doubt. nothing personal, just life everywhere, living, moving things and even sometimes watching signs and thoughts of separation without getting attatched!

stay in that place of observation.
is it not peaceful?, is it not pleasant?, is a place where there is only ... this, nothing more


Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

who is who qualifies things rough and hard?, who is it that has that perspective on life in this moment?, who is having problems or having bad times?, is not it what we are investigating?

yes, that is true.

and yes, it is peaceful!

With love,
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

and yes, it is peaceful!

Ok!... it seems to me that such a peaceful place was "reached"
please describe a little more detail what it feels to be in that "place".


Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

It feels just as usual, but everytime the mind starts to control the situation, blame "myself", or thinking that "I" am someone, just trying to look for that person anywhere without success, and then lots of negative feelings disappear. Because it is useless to get angry with "myself" or "somebody else" or be bitter about how things are or maybe even sad.
all of that still happens, but the body and mind do not get tangled up in it, thinking that it should be sad or angry or that something was unfair. dont put so much energy in imagining how things should have been. feeling more and more that things are as they should be. it is a feeling of trust and community. just feeling more safe and welcoming the present more and more. feeling more in it! and also out of it! it is nice :)

Hugs

Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

Very good!

I want to comment a few things about your post

It feels just as usual, but everytime the mind starts to control the situation, blame "myself", or thinking that "I" am someone, just trying to look for that person anywhere without success, and then lots of negative feelings disappear. Because it is useless to get angry with "myself" or "somebody else" or be bitter about how things are or maybe even sad.

that's right, think I understand you... the perspective is a little different here: the mind has no control, never was in control, is another thought what is believe, we can still in that "empty place": simply hearing, smelling, feeling the environment, seeing without another thought, take a deeply breath an let the "attention" happen, the awareness of everything happen, can do you see that?.... is everything... this.

feeling more and more that things are as they should be. it is a feeling of trust and community.

great!... that is... the things are as they are and never could be in another way!, the acceptation of that, bring a lot of peace... there are no enemies and nothing to defend, how do you see that?

feeling more in it! and also out of it! it is nice :)

inside and outside... up or down... is the same

please comment what you see right now

Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

"...trying to look for that person anywhere without success, and then lots of negative feelings disappear. Because it is useless to get angry with "myself" or "somebody else" or be bitter about how things are or maybe even sad."

that's right, think I understand you... the perspective is a little different here: the mind has no control, never was in control, is another thought what is believe, we can still in that "empty place": simply hearing, smelling, feeling the environment, seeing without another thought, take a deeply breath an let the "attention" happen, the awareness of everything happen, can do you see that?.... is everything... this.

Ohhh. I think I understand what you are saying. see that there were thoughts and feelings of the mind or body "trying" and "dealing" here, but over there was a different perspective. there were thoughts of things just happening without any doer at all.

great!... that is... the things are as they are and never could be in another way!, the acceptation of that, bring a lot of peace... there are no enemies and nothing to defend, how do you see that?

dont know. i'm loosing the perspective. it all seems like philosophies. it doesnt change how it is. and nobody knows how it is in this way. it just is. so how could anyone guide anyone? seems impossible to know why or how. dont know what there is left to do? okay. already thoughts of how, and thought about the future.
a feeling of weirdness pops up, if someone is trying to kill me, i will most likely get a feeling of fear and then try to defend this body or mind or what it is. - still only speculation. and there are no enemies, i think i understand/feel that in a way right now. there are only one way and nobody could do anything better or worse, thought. nothing to defend, thought of valuable things that i love or that the body and mind associate with feelings of love, friendship and so on, but it is not mine? it is real though.
ooooh, feeling of sadness and wondering about what it is.
thought: all this thinking makes it hard to understand what is real. it is like being in the future or the past. but those are such beautiful dreamplaces that it is hard to leave.
confused feeling/thought today

Love
Toma