Ready to go

[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

Nice list of expectations and quite realistic :-) Now let them go, so you can start afresh.

I expect to realise there is more space in which to choose response because the automatic defense/assertion of this self has been seen to be an illusion.

You're right, although one of the things to explore will be whether there is any entity behind choosing and deciding.

Before we go into anything more specific, tell me what comes up when you let this thought in:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

Looking forward to your reply.

V x

[philkingston]

Disbelief at first, a blunt sense of "no way, I am so solid, "I" is so solid"

Some exhilaration - this is what I've understood for years to be the goal of reflection and insight

Confusion- where would I go to orientate myself in my experience? You're taking my seat away.

Disorientation- where would I feel my sense of agency, my sense that I have power over the world, that I have an effect on it, that if can make a difference

Disbelief again - I choose all the time and the choices are sometimes difficult, you can't convince me it wasn't me who made myself get up just now despite the desire to stay in bed

Fear? - yes. Deeper than most of the above and harder to articulate but I feel the queasy taste of it when I sit with the thought that there is nothing really there.

'As one movement of totality' - my brain can't let this in, it resists it

Exhilaration again- something in me knows this to be true and is eager to get there

Fear - of my own resistance


There that's an honest snapshot of this mornings responses.

Thanks Vajradakini,

LV

[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

Ok good, honest responses!

You're taking my seat away....you can't convince me it wasn't me who made myself get up just now despite the desire to stay in bed....Disbelief

I promise - refuse, even! - to try to persuade or dissuade you from any beliefs - that's not what pointing is. My role is only to point you to look in direct experience and discover what is real or fiction about 'self' - 'yourself' ;-).

Fear? - yes. Deeper than most of the above and harder to articulate but I feel the queasy taste of it when I sit with the thought that there is nothing really there.

Fear - of my own resistance

I'm sure you're familiar with this basic statement of the no-self characteristic (anatta-lakkhana) from the Pali canon.
“All phenomena are not self”
 
This is not that there’s ‘nothing really there’. Clearly, there is this - experience/existence, Is this not absolutely obvious?

What’s being got at is that by this kind of statement is that there are no-‘things’ – no really existent (permanent, unchanging, essential) entities, anywhere. ‘We’ exist, but not as such an entity. The belief that ‘I am’ such an entity is the main underlying root of stress, unsatisfactoriness, suffering.

What is, ‘reality’ as we experience it directly, is inter-connected, spontaneously (i.e. self-lessly, entity-lessly) interacting in an infinite and, for the thinking mind, incomprehensible dynamic web of conditionality or pure energy. No self also means no division, separation or isolation.
 
Seeing through the self-view is akin a kid realising there is no Santa Claus. The self-view simply drops away when it’s seen / known directly that there is no self and never was. When Santa is subsequently seen in the shopping mall, it’s known immediately that he’s just a story, an actor, not the ‘real’ Santa. So it’s quite similar with seeing through the self-view.
 
So, simply, there is nothing to fear. When you stopped believing in Santa Claus, did Santa Claus die?

This is all about you really looking whether there is an entity ('I', 'Me', 'Lalitavira') who is running the show, making decisions about getting out of bed or whatever, but not approaching it via the content of thoughts or beliefs at all because they are always doubtable. My 7 year-old son still believes in Father Christmas and super heroes; we adults operate similarly (maybe with different characters or sets of beliefs about all sorts of things).

You’ll only discover the complete absence of an abiding, solid, substantial ‘entity’ by going deeply into direct experience. Following the thinking 'scripts' will just lead you round and round in circles. However, observed thoughts are part of DE (as opposed to getting lost in the content or storyline of thoughts). Later I'll suggest paying particular attention to ‘I’ thoughts as mental objects, arising in awareness (if they are just mental objects, just like the arisings of the other five senses are, how can they be the essential ‘me’?).

You said you were here a year ago so maybe you're already familiar with how to work in DE but it would be good to know we're on the same page as regards what is DE versus imagination.

So….let's come to the senses:

Sit with your eyes open, look at what is appearing. Note this as a direct sense experience of seeing. Close your eyes and imagine the scene you were just looking at. Identify this as a mental activity – imaging. Repeat until you’re completely clear about the difference.

Now with hearing. If you’ve got a bell or some kind of musical instrument you could use that – or some music on a CD, for instance. Imagine the sound, then listen to the sound. Mental activity … direct experience. Know the difference, directly.

With body (tactile) sensations: try mentally imagining / naming ‘hand’, ‘foot’ and other parts of the body and then bring attention to the direct sensations of the part you’ve just named. Notice the process: is it ‘hand’ … mental image of hand … actual sensations of hand? Or what? Just get clear that a tactile experience is totally different to a mental activity about a tactile experience.

If that’s not enough, you can also do something similar with smelling and tasting – have, say, a piece of fruit available (but far enough away that you can’t smell it). Now imagine the smell / taste of the fruit. Note this as ‘mental activity’. Now pick up the fruit and smell it, noting this as ‘direct experience’. Continue imagining, smelling and eating until you are completely clear about the difference. 


Let me know how you get on with that! :-)

Love,
V x

[philkingston]

Hi Vajradakini,

I want to spend a few days on these exercises because they feel worthwhile

Here's some immediate observations on the Visual exercise

The experiences are so different. Imagining depends upon DE, and yet it is a poor relation, the imagined object is never as full, as detailed, as rich as DE.

There is effort involved. Effort to notice and then effort to reproduce in imagination. One can look harder, look more closely. And equally one can imaginatively reproduce the object more clearly.

Once I wrote that I wondered if making this effort was getting in the way of a natural ability.

The imagined object is a trace of DE.

I have to impose boundaries on DE to isolate an object to imagine, DE is rich and feels infinite. The imagined isn't like this, an isolated object can sit in it.

I don't really see the object in imagination during this exercise, it's more like an idea of what the object should look like. Which is odd as i always thought my mind is full of visually rich stories, e.g. a sexual fantasy is pretty graphic visually as are the pictures in my head when I review my day.

A side effect of this is to realise how little I do look, how much of my experience is masked by ideas of what the world is like rather than directly attending to what is there. In fact, this is the realisation I keep coming back to, how much I'm missing in front of my nose.

The imagined is a construction. It can happen very quickly and habitually, it feels automatic. Direct experience is always new, fresh and especially raw. It is both exhilarating and uncomfortable to keep staying in it.


Best,

LV

[Douglita]

Hello Lalitavira,

Good set of observations.

I don't really see the object in imagination during this exercise, it's more like an idea of what the object should look like. Which is odd as i always thought my mind is full of visually rich stories, e.g. a sexual fantasy is pretty graphic visually as are the pictures in my head when I review my day.

Yes, most people find that the imagined sense object pales in comparison to the real sensation, or is fuzzy/blurry, like a very poor quality video played on a machine that is also on the blink. As you said in your last post,

DE is rich and feels infinite

Yes :-). Though it's true, as you go on to say, imagination can at times be extremely vivid, especially with more desirous imagined 'objects' ;-). However, the point of the exercise is simply to become familiar with and able to differentiate clearly between real sensations or mental fabrications, so that usually works best with fairly neutral content...and you seemed to 'get' that difference. And it's great what you eloquently express next:

A side effect of this is to realise how little I do look, how much of my experience is masked by ideas of what the world is like rather than directly attending to what is there. In fact, this is the realisation I keep coming back to, how much I'm missing in front of my nose.

The imagined is a construction. It can happen very quickly and habitually, it feels automatic. Direct experience is always new, fresh and especially raw. It is both exhilarating and uncomfortable to keep staying in it.

Loved all this - spot on!

I want to spend a few days on these exercises because they feel worthwhile

As you seem to have 'got' DE very well and immediately (and that's going to be the modus operandi from now on), I'm not sure you need to spend a few days on these exercises. Certainly repeat them as long as they feel useful, but then I'd suggest starting to 'drop in' some looking for 'I' questions along with the sense experiencing. Here's just one for starters:

• In seeing, are you 'doing' the seeing, or is it just happening?

(Answer just with what is in sense experience, not what you assume or think about how it is happening)

V x

[philkingston]

Aha, when I look got an 'I' all I find is the same sort of thin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[philkingston]

Sorry got sent prematurely..,

I find the same sort of thin fuzzy object I saw in imagination. In other words what I think of as I is a construction


There is looking going on. 'I turn my head' but really there is an experience of choosing/ deciding which feels pretty fuzzy too but what definitely happens is there is a turning of the head. More looking, shapes objects colours. Looking is happening. There isn't anything more definite or solid than that that can be said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Douglita]

Hi LV,

I find the same sort of thin fuzzy object I saw in imagination. In other words what I think of as I is a construction

Very well observed!

There is looking going on. 'I turn my head' but really there is an experience of choosing/ deciding which feels pretty fuzzy too but what definitely happens is there is a turning of the head. More looking, shapes objects colours. Looking is happening. There isn't anything more definite or solid than that that can be said.

Again, very good! Yes decisions arise, but is an 'I' choosing/deciding, or is that just a reconstruction of events? I'll come to that a bit later...

Looking is happening

. Exactly. Sounds like you saw no-'one' separate from the experience of looking, no 'looker' behind looking.

Have a look for 'me' in the other senses too:

- In hearing, is there any separation between 'hearer' and 'heard'? Where exactly is the sound located?
- In smelling, is there 'someone' smelling, or just the experience. What/where is the actual experience?
- Same with tasting...does an 'I' taste? What is the actual experience?
- Likewise in feeling the floor, the seat, your clothes ... where is the boundary, if any, between sensation and the one feeling it? Can you feel a boundary line or edge between the seat you are sitting on and your body?

- As thoughts arise, are you thinking them, or are they just thoughts?

I've given you quite a bit to be going on with above... but this question of 'choice' keeps coming up in your other observations (and really needs looking at carefully at some point soon), so if you have time before writing again perhaps start looking at 'decisions' too.

The underlying question is 'am I giving rise to this, or are conditions alone giving rise to this?' So investigate this in actions 'big' and 'small'. Do 'I decide' to scratch that itch, or does it just arise out of the circumstances? Sit down in a chair when you have nothing else to do, and notice the conditioning factors that condition your getting up again. When you're out and about on foot, what conditions your walking on this side of the road rather than the other. You mentioned in very firm terms the other day that that 'you' decide when to get out of bed. Tomorrow morning have a good look. Can you see a self making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up, a 'you 'that commands the body? 

V x

[philkingston]

- In hearing, is there any separation between 'hearer' and 'heard'? Where exactly is the sound located?

There is a sound and there is an almost automtomatic moving towards the pleasant ones and pushing away the unpleasant. There is also an almost automatic naming of the sound. There isn't the same strong sense of ownership of sounds as in sight, they feel outside of control as though they are happening to me. When I investigate the experience or attend to it more there is no thing to which the hearing is being done. Also I don't see how there can be any sound without there being a hearing of it, at least ntot those sounds I am attending to. There is the hearing of sounds. The distinction between hearer and heard is a convention, a pragmatic way of chopping up my experience to talk about it.

One other observation. This process of Direct Experennce has a very refreshing effect. I find my thinking is clearer and more supple, that generally I'm more intelligent in my responses and there is more gap in my life from which to make more creative choices when the usual compulsions and habits tempt me.

Best to you Vajradakinin

LV

[Douglita]

Nice observations again Lalitavira, about hearing and seeing.

-One other observation. This process of Direct Experennce has a very refreshing effect. I find my thinking is clearer and more supple, that generally I'm more intelligent in my responses and there is more gap in my life from which to make more creative choices when the usual compulsions and habits tempt me./quote]

Good that you are enjoying being in direct experience more :-) but still are you investigating whether it really is 'my' thinking? Thinking happens for sure but have you looked at this in DE yet?

As thoughts arise, are you thinking them, or are they just thoughts?

Intelligence is a quality of awareness, but is it 'my' (your) intelligence?

Use that 'gap' that you described appearing in life now to have a close look at how choices occur and whether those more creative choices that are happening are made by an entity Lalitavira.


1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up, a you that commands the body?

2. On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

4. Can you choose the content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

5. Can you choose the quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction ... etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attiitude, that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion, that appeared in response to a stimulus?

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does, focus on focussing, attention itself. Do you move it? Or does it move by itself? Hold the focus on the breath for a while, see how it changes with thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

Describe what you see and take time if you need to. There's a lot there, but just pick and choose whatever looks most helpful from above, and watch how that decision arises too ;-)

Can you find anything in will and decisions apart from conditions arising?

Is there a man in the box, twiddling the dials?!

Love,
V x

[philkingston]

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

There is a choosing that takes place and then very quickly afterwards I feel something, habit maybe or some subtle need, which clothes this choosing with a sense of ownership. There's a sense I knew the number before it was chosen, or, and okay, though it feels awkward to use language like this, there was a sense of knowing the number before the number is chosen. Even after doing it several times.

There was also a sliver of fear that with no chooser there is no hierarchy of choice, no opportunity to make better choices. BUT there was a flicker of intuition that this doesn't matter, it's a red herring, that letting go of the need to feel in control of choices will lead to something much richer.

2. Raising arm - this was weird. There was an urge to make a decision long before the counting stopped but if I held out ( or if there was effort made to resist forestalling the moment) there was this extraordinary sensation of nothing out of which either left , right or neither arm moved.

6. No I don't choose what arises next but there is a choosing that goes on which distinguishes the most distracted states especially when I am tired or stressed from the more focussed ones when there is energy and purpose and ambition. But no I can't find any thing doing the choosing.

I'll set up for watching sleep and getting out of bed tonight and report tomorrow morning.

Best

LV

[Douglita]

Hi there :-)

There is a choosing that takes place and then very quickly afterwards I feel something, habit maybe or some subtle need, which clothes this choosing with a sense of ownership. There's a sense I knew the number before it was chosen, or, and okay, though it feels awkward to use language like this, there was a sense of knowing the number before the number is chosen. Even after doing it several times.

I think what you may be spotting here is that decisions (or will) normally arise before we notice them. It seems that after they have arisen, we then call that arisen choice a 'decision'. However, if you look carefully for the 'point' of any decision - as you did - (turn left, turn right, brake, accelerate, tea, coffee, this pen, that pen, toast or porridge etc.) you see that what we called a 'decision' had in fact, already arrived by itself. Do you drive? Look and see if there is any entity directing how you drive and all the decisions that entails, or does it happen all by itself?!

There was also a sliver of fear that with no chooser there is no hierarchy of choice, no opportunity to make better choices. BUT there was a flicker of intuition that this doesn't matter, it's a red herring, that letting go of the need to feel in control of choices will lead to something much richer.

Good intuition! It's more a question of seeing that there is no 'you' to be in control of choices. 'Better' decisions and choices have always arisen – conditionally – without that entity being there. So, it’s a question of seeing-knowing directly that this is the case. Decisions etc. continue to happen self-lessly, as they always have.

The fact that there is no self-entity there doesn't mean there is

no opportunity to make better choices

- in fact the opposite. The klesas arise from the sense of fragmentation or separateness which the self-view propagates and maintains – feeling ‘lack’ we try to fill it with craving and aversion etc. As we see through the self-view, we begin to realise our natural ‘wholeness’ again, and the klesa-habits (samskaras) begin to lose their momentum as we see-know directly how they give rise to, and in fact actually are, dukkha. So you could say that there is now a more natural inclination to skilful action. So - you could say that the 'opportunity' you mention is freer to present itself, however hard-wired the habits.

2. Raising arm - this was weird. There was an urge to make a decision long before the counting stopped but if I held out ( or if there was effort made to resist forestalling the moment) there was this extraordinary sensation of nothing out of which either left , right or neither arm moved.

Good! You're seeing it right there!

6. No I don't choose what arises next but there is a choosing that goes on which distinguishes the most distracted states especially when I am tired or stressed from the more focussed ones when there is energy and purpose and ambition. But no I can't find any thing doing the choosing.

You can't find anyone doing the choosing. :-). There is perception or distinguishing happening -yes - but can you really find any 'me' who is distracted, tired or stressed? Can you find any 'I' behind being focussed and energy, purpose etc? Please keep looking.

I'll set up for watching sleep and getting out of bed tonight and report tomorrow morning.

I look forward to hearing! Keep going with this for a while...


Vajradakini x

[philkingston]

Hi,

This was written before I saw your last reply but it's all relevant.

Very happy to keep going, this is feeling very healthy...

Focus meanders about responding to stimuli from outside, noises, and inside, feelings, memories. There is a noticing of distraction that happens which feels like an 'I' deciding to focus again.

There is a strong resistance to accepting there is no solid thing behind the experience of choosing. There is choosing happening and as the reflection moves towards a sense of there being no 'I' doing it there's a drawing back, fear maybe. It's too subtle at the moment to describe but with more practice it will become clearer. There is confidence in that.

Watching the experience of focussing and attention it is as if there is a weave of layers of choosing - some automatic, like a scratch , some, much more conscious, like choosing to focus on something interesting or more powerful choosing not to focus on something that draws the attention. This weave feels very complex and deep, hard to see through.

Driving the car this morning there are automatic choices and more on scions ones, there is behaviour that has been learnt and that is responsive to other signals. There is a sense of observing then responding. No need for an 'I' but it is a strong mental habit in such an activity.

Couldn't watch myself fall asleep. Getting up though there was a moment when the complex of sensations called my body moved out of the bed. There's a distinct quality to the deciding of actions that move towards unpleasant sensation but it's still there's no need to insist there's a solid thing behind them. At least I'm not finding this thing I'm looking for, this self.


Best

LV

[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

Very happy to keep going, this is feeling very healthy...

I'm happy too and agree that it's good :-)

Focus meanders about responding to stimuli from outside, noises, and inside, feelings, memories. There is a noticing of distraction that happens which feels like an 'I' deciding to focus again.

Are ‘you’ really doing noticing? Does noticing awareness - or Direct Experience - have anything to do with ‘you’ as alleged observing / doing entity? Can you find any ‘line’ or distinction between a feeling, arising sensation or thought and the awareness of that arising?

Is there a distinction between them in direct experience? Where is the boundary? Is awareness ever not totally inseparably one with what’s arising? Really look.

There is a strong resistance to accepting there is no solid thing behind the experience of choosing. There is choosing happening and as the reflection moves towards a sense of there being no 'I' doing it there's a drawing back, fear maybe. It's too subtle at the moment to describe but with more practice it will become clearer. There is confidence in that.

Ok I'd like to encourage you not to be afraid of the fear - just allow it to be there and have its say if it wants to speak. There is a lot of emotional attachment to the notion of 'I' . Bearing that in mind...

What if there was no need to control anything?
What would happen if things were just left to be as they are?

Driving the car this morning there are automatic choices and more on scions ones, there is behaviour that has been learnt and that is responsive to other signals. There is a sense of observing then responding. No need for an 'I' but it is a strong mental habit in such an activity.

Keep looking at your daily experiences. Look for the moment the “I” label gets attached to a movement, to a 'doing'. There is an experience, and the thought comes up, “I” did it. Watch out for this. Be like a detective, ready to spot it! Experience happens, and a thought labels it.
Along with what you did yesterday... continue on looking for something 'driving' the car
Yes, choices and decisions arise, there are strong mental and physical habits along with activities, but can you see that they are conditioned arisings - impersonal?

There's a distinct quality to the deciding of actions that move towards unpleasant sensation but it's still there's no need to insist there's a solid thing behind them. At least I'm not finding this thing I'm looking for, this self.

Can you clarify the first sentence in the quote above? I did not understand how moving towards unpleasant sensation came along with deciding for you. Maybe there was a typo in there that threw a spanner in the works? :-).

All the best,

V x

[philkingston]

Hi V,

Worked on this twice today. Firstly driving to work again and there is the experience of automatic actions, of colour and shape, of decisions being made which are more conscious than others. For some reason the ability to stay with DE feels harder, there's more static in my head, more inclination to daydream. Later when I try it again while washing up I notice particularly that daydreams really reinforce the sense of a self. When I spend a minute playing some movie in my head about how I'm going to be devastatingly assertive with a bullying colleague at work I notice it's harder to let go of the convention in my head that this self is a real thing. I haven't let go of it of course and today there's been stronger resistance, less energy, less of the space I've experienced in the last few days. This writing itself is benign done at the last minute because the weight of entropy is coming back stronger.

But I'm still doing it. And I'm confident that persistence will win through.

During the drive there were a few moments of exhilaration when the sense of what it could be like to let go felt possible, that one could witness experience as it unfolds instead of trying to control it. This feels possible though I don't feel it yet.

As for that last remark about the distinctiveness of moving towards the unpleasant. What I meant was it feels like you have to make a stronger decision to move towards the unpleasant because the inclination is towards the pleasant. This strength reinforces the sense that something is exerting effort and therefore there is a thing, a self, there to do this.

I'll keep going.

Best

LV x


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk