The Gate

Hi G,

[Another from you arrived as I was just about to post this ... this relates to the previous two]

memory is curious... on one level it is simply ideas presenting themselves in experience... but the quality of pastness suggests they come from somewhere... the idea of a storehouse arises... which is an idea about ideas...

the content of one memory is about a time when i was doing more yoga and memories arose from intense body sensations emerging in meditation and breaking into consciousness as a surprising show of bright lights and visual memories, often very early memories in the story of self...

even if memories are held somehow, somewhere, it is a psycho-mechanism, it is not self-entity

and this is all ideas...

Ok, so you ‘know’ this conceptually, but not directly in experience. Memories are thoughts arising now – they are ‘conditioned’ by past experience and all sorts of other factors. ‘Where’ they come from is not relevant to this line of investigation – that just leads into further conceptualisation.

Best look directly at what arises (conditionally) in this moment and see that no ‘ghost in the machine’ can be found. There is just an arising – however vivid. Can you directly find a doer, an experiencer, a ‘you’ that is anything other than a mental imputation?

You’ll only discover the complete absence of an abiding, solid, substantial ‘entity’ by going deeply into direct experience, not by thinking about it – in that case, you’ll just go round and round in circles.

what can i infer from this...

is there an unconscious...
a storehouse...
a matrix of cause and effect...

that i am not sensitive to and therefore cannot 'see' in direct experience...

and if so... could the self abide there?

Inference has its place, but not in this direct pointing / direct experience approach. Here it seems to me you’re just tying yourself into mental knots. Direct experience is obvious, present and cannot be doubted (as it has no mental component at all, and it’s only in the mind that doubt exists).

i feel like a blind man... angry that everybody's clapping the light show

Direct nonconceptual experience is always present. If you investigate that, really look without buying into any of the conceptualisations that arise, you’ll discover directly that ‘self’ is nothing other than a story / belief / concept.

‘Direct experience’ and ‘not-self’ are two terms pointing at exactly the same understanding … understanding outside of mind, in awareness and the senses, directly. That's the only place to look.

T.

hmm... and then there is a pretty clear experience of identification with thoughts, ideas and sensations... perceived as a self story... well within the bounds of my sensitivity ... within direct experience...

hmm...

All this is arising, ‘experience’ – as you say. Look to the direct experience.

T.

‘Direct experience’ and ‘not-self’ are two terms pointing at exactly the same understanding … understanding outside of mind, in awareness and the senses, directly. That's the only place to look.

bit lost for words then...

Good! :)
Have a look ...

Looking intensively ... Working sensations loose from body images ... Working thoughts free of voice and language... All emotions quickly evoking curiosity about who it is that is feeling that way ... No self found yet ... Will keep you posted ... G

After hours of intensive looking... Same old self sat on the cushions ... Then despair ... Then who is despairing? ... Then back in the flux ...

After hours of intensive looking... Same old self sat on the cushions ... Then despair ... Then who is despairing? ... Then back in the flux ...

You're getting it, then doubting. No-one doing this - doubt, despair is not 'you'.

Try this (I don't think we've done this one before ... but even if so, it can be useful):

Sit quietly, let the mind quieten down a bit if that can happen, eyes closed.
Can you find your personality?
Is it there?
Is it a discoverable ‘thing’ at all?

T.

Ok... The self is just the thought ... Latching itself onto sensations, emotions, thoughts... That is clearly seen.

There is no 'personality' in direct experience...

... so, what is the 'personality'?

'personality' ... a story built upon the thought of self... which is a mistaken thought

a label applied erroneously to a mistaken thought

a thought

Your recent answers seem quite clear as to the absence of 'self' - sometimes after 'selfing' (habit) happens and then looking occurs. Are there any pervading doubts still around?

T.

No doubts are present...

i read through the whole thread and could see where i was speaking from experience and where selfing had begun to weave its stories...

when i read this bit

there are sensations I feel and you don't... so 'me' is not a sensation but sensations are mine, at an everyday level... whilst they are fleeting, they are also predictable and repeatable

for a few moments selfing kicked in and identified as a body and a location in space... with a little looking i could not find 'body' and 'a location in space'... and when i returned to this body in the kitchen it was again clear that there is no self in direct experience...

So are you able to say with certainty that the illusion of a separate (permanent, unchanging, substantial) self has been seen through?

T.

No

i am doubting that i have seen it all

i keep selfing around the body image and sensations and location in space and thought and inner voice

these are not arising in disinterested awareness

i think something has shifted in terms of knowing where to look to loosen the attachment

but there is not so much opportunity for looking again as the working week kicks in

Well I don't know... I say there is selfing going on but I'm not so sure there is... As I look I see grasping and flapping about... There is body image and the voice in my head Has a recognisable tone etc... But I am not seeing 'self' labels flying about... Self is just a thought... Clinging is clinging.... Head getting in way of direct experience is just head getting in way of direct experience...neither of those are self

Should any of this be sorted out by seeing through self?

I feel like I'm just peeking out... Looking at other people and just experimenting with seeing them as having no selves... That they are thinking self thoughts as life tries to live through them despite the delusion... Looking back at 'my' life and seeing that it was never 'my' life

'self' is just a thought

And everything else just continues as before...