Padma wants to pass through (request for Perrym or Jowate)

[perrym]

Hi,

selfing like mad and my whole awareness was narrowed down to tunnel vision.
Eventually [...] awareness widened

Yes, right - a very dramatic an large-scale example of the way awareness narrows and widens!

It also goes on, less dramatically, on shorter time-scales, even moment-by-moment ... a sudden sound from upstairs, and that is all that is in awareness for a few seconds... until the thought arises, "oh, it's nothing", and awareness broadens to include my overall purpose sitting here and the room around me ... all happening quite spontaneously.

This came out of discussing 'struggling with thoughts' ... I was pointing to the way that, once a thought has passed, awareness naturally broadens out, and it is not necessary to 'struggle' with the thought that has just passed. To 'struggle' is to embark on another narrowing, where in fact it is enough just to notice that a thought has passed, and that awareness has broadened a little...

x
Perry

[perrym]

Hi,

The little things just kindda happen – e.g. switching the lights off, ‘nobody’ is deciding to do that. Even though there may be thoughts about it afterwards.
For the more complicated things, like “Will I have enough time to go for a run today?”. There’s a weighting of options, a checking with the Heart about what’s important, double checking with the mind (which is not particularly useful because ‘should‘ starts to get involved), then an expression of that arises in action..

yes, great observation!

so even with the more conscious deliberation, the decision ultimately just 'arises in action', yes?

it is interesting that this is different from the two possibilities that "self view" offers, either:

• 'I choose freely (I have free will)'
• 'i have no choice (my actions are pre determined)'

Is there an "I" freely choosing?
Is there an "I" that has no choice?
Or do decisions simply arise in dependence upon conditions?

Feeling awful today:
My big psychological stuff is coming up, my usual ‘big issue’:
I am not good enough for this
Who am I to think I am going to finish this process of liberation. I am not allowed to be free, I am not allowed to be happy: these are selfish ideas that will make other people (aka mother) suffer and be unhappy.
Deep sadness and consternation.
The brick wall I have been expecting.
Trying to stay with all that with an open heart.

Feeling like I am not making progress, still not ‘seeing it’ – or is that just a thought arising out of certain conditions. Actually, even though it hurts like hell, I’m not sure I am believing it fully.

Bahhh, sorry for the downer.

heyy, I was just thinking how well you were doing :-)

Particularly with the decision making observations - "I am the decider" is one of the stickier illusions to overcome.

I’m not sure I am believing it fully.

I certainly hope not ;-)

You could come back to direct experience ... there are sensations and thoughts going on, recognise a thought as just a thought, the feeling it creates as just a feeling, the memory that pops into mind and just another thought, all going on RIGHT NOW and passing away as soon as it has arisen. This may not be comfortable experience, but it is just more experience. These thoughts are not blessed with any special weight or reality, they are no more worthy of committed 'belief' than any other thought.

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

it is interesting that this is different from the two possibilities that "self view" offers, either:
• 'I choose freely (I have free will)'
• 'i have no choice (my actions are pre determined)'
Is there an "I" freely choosing?
Is there an "I" that has no choice?
Or do decisions simply arise in dependence upon conditions?

There is still a choice: to go running or not to go running, to write my thread or not. And the decision will arise out of millions of conditions, including commitments I have made and previous experiences of running and writing to Perry.
But conditions change. An emergency could arise, an opportunity for pleasure, a cat demanding cuddles. Internal conditions change too. As awareness rests, focus on various elements of experience, they take more central stage and become stronger, more familiar, easier. What I focus on grows. As I focus more on non-self, my interest in it grows, my acceptance of it grows and it becomes easier to explore (I hope I’m right here!).
I would love to think I’m independent, make my own choices ...But... **embarrassment alert**...noticing how much my decisions have to do with culture, education, norm etc

Right now (this afternoon when I was writing this) thinking about what I am going to wear for work and shall I wear makeup. Part of me doesn’t give a damn (is that the ‘free’ part of me?), another part thinks it’s important to ‘look professional’ (culture & norm and upbringing). I know the professional part is going to win because that’s what I’ve been doing for the past 2 years (habit) and I usually feel better for it (experience). I know I probably won’t wear a skirt because I don’t feel very well, so I’ll want to be cosy (story/belief).

½ hour later: got interrupted, then had to rush to work: put on my red skirt, which was the last thing I expected!!! This is hilarious :)

Tracing back how that happen, this is what I saw: a ‘rebellious me’ tried to say that she did it to prove that she had 100% free will, but on closer inspection what happened is that when I mentioned the skirt, that created an image of the skirt in my mind (the mind can’t process ‘no-skirt’) and as I thought of the clinic where I work, I could see it in my mind and I remembered that Susan told me I look great in red... Tadha! Vanity won: red skirt it was!
Vanity is not 'I'

Loving this looking at decision making. It’s fascinating!

Will carry on looking for the 'I' in it.

I have a day off tomorrow and the week end: all homework welcome.

With gratitude,
Padma
xxx

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

About my post the other day regarding that experience of should narrowing my awareness and leading to selfing, then widening again when I corrected the situation and dropped the should.
What I wanted to say about that (but didn’t end up typing) was that the ‘should’ felt like not-truth and that was creating all sorts of pains. When I dropped it and went back into truth, I sensed a flow. Things were flowing again.
So, my point was about Truth and flow.

This morning, much resistance and avoidance. Finally managed to stay with it and look at it for a while. Well, quite a long while, most of the afternoon.

But it is hard to describe what happens. It feels very child like. Like when children know something, but don’t want to admit to it and cover their eyes up or their ears.

Another way of describing it is that the fear below the resistance feels very uncomfortable, through my whole body, especially the gut area and the neck and shoulders. It is just like I am wearing a huge cloak that is too old and heavy and drab. I want to get rid of it; I know I’ll be much better off for it. But it’s so familiar; it’s been good to me. It’s so awkward, so uncomfortable to be in this position.

I feel like I know this, yet I forgot or I can’t see it. I feel like I’m right at the edge and all I have to do is take that step to leap. Or maybe just let the leaping happen. Maybe I just need to allow the leap to take me.
What the avoidance is avoiding is for me to see what the fear is hiding. Nothing. A habit of protecting. A belief that something needs protecting, that it is vulnerable. I have been buying into that and still am, albeit to a lesser degree. But it is just one movement amongst so many others, a movement of narrowing .

And right now writing this makes me smile and my heart smiles and another movements takes over, widening. Aaaah, that's interesting!..... So, just seeing it as habit and movement helps being less caught up in the content. A bit of relief here, now. I think I'm getting a way to let that habit be, without getting to involved/invested in it.


Padma
xx

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
Just realised I missed one of your reply on May1st (on page 2).
So, will print that one out tomorrow and have a LOOK!
You must have thought I'd gone on a tangent!

Thanks,
Padma

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
This ‘lost’ thread from 1st May has been really helpful today. It feels like a penny has dropped (again) about how much subtely or grossly I have been wanting to change my experience again in the last few days particularly.

Looking to direct experience, can you find an entity there to take credit, or are these just thoughts?

I can’t say that there is an entity. But there is a ‘sense of sef’, a sensation of cohesion, sometimes fluid, at other times rather solid. The ‘I don’t want to do this process’ has a sense of solidity to it, a narrowing of experience going into the head.

Can you pay your respects to these patterns, love them - and also see them for what they are?

Aaaah, yes! Loving what is! So I don’t need to get rid of these stories or judge them!! Doh! Going back to the basics of mindfulness and apply them to the stories and habits. This is very useful. How could I possibly see them for what they are if I don’t love them and thank them.
Relaxing. Many stories present themselves to me now. How they made a pattern that was useful at the time. I bow to that.

Can you notice the qualities in direct experience that make up what is most intimately and familiarly 'me-ness'? Are these really special, are they actually a 'self', or are they just familiar sensations?

The familiar sensations of my body, the way I stand, walk, talk, the face I make when I’m thinking (the way I imagine that to be)... The colours I surround myself with, songs, my hair. And ALL the likes and dislikes, pet hates. A LOT of protection mechanisms against (imagined or real) expectations of others to be like this or like them.
More intimately, some Big Idea, full of adjectives (loving, funny, grumpy, idealistic, ethical, brave, selfish etc....) and the actions that confirm the Big Idea. Action always followed by a ‘I’ did that and justified, explained to fit into the Big Idea.
So, I’m the kind of person who is nice and like nature, so I went for a walk and sat under a tree to look deeply in my experience and saw that NONE OF THE ABOVE were important AT ALL when sitting there with the tree and the wind and the little noises of the forest and the breathing in my stomach. The person sitting there was familiar and so was the place and the light and the tree.

OK: so next time you have the space, and notice this going on, can you explore what is going on when 'MY' is added in to the raw immediate experience?

Great. Will take time to do that tomorrow as well as loving the stories and letting them ‘hang out’.
I’m already getting a sense that ‘my’ solidifies things, it’s a grasping, it makes the thing more into a thing fixed and ‘supposed to’ stay here and not change. It’s not free anymore. I’m less free as well as I have burdened myself with more stuff to be responsible for. It weighs on the heart and body.

Padma
xx

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

Thanks for posting so regularly - I'm afraid I've been really short of time the last couple of days.

So many wonderful things in your last few posts ... perhaps there is nothing for me to add other than 'yes, yes! carry on!'

You have a real gift for describing some of these things. This is just perfect:

But it is hard to describe what happens. It feels very child like. Like when children know something, but don’t want to admit to it and cover their eyes up or their ears.

Another way of describing it is that the fear below the resistance feels very uncomfortable, through my whole body, especially the gut area and the neck and shoulders. It is just like I am wearing a huge cloak that is too old and heavy and drab. I want to get rid of it; I know I’ll be much better off for it. But it’s so familiar; it’s been good to me. It’s so awkward, so uncomfortable to be in this position.

Beautifully put - that cloak of familiarity, welcome and unwelcome, comforting and constricting ... yes, you're on the edge. 'It' cannot be thrown off by force, but you can accept and investigate the experience ... something needs to be clearly seen, what is it?

What the avoidance is avoiding is for me to see what the fear is hiding. Nothing. A habit of protecting. A belief that something needs protecting, that it is vulnerable.

Yes! Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Just a habit protecting nothing. Can this really be? Nothing to protect! What is that like?

Have fun investigating 'my' and 'mine' :-)

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

I've got gastroenteritits and a massive headache with it. Probably not the best conditions for investigating, but thought I'd have a go anyway.

that cloak of familiarity, welcome and unwelcome, comforting and constricting ... yes, you're on the edge. 'It' cannot be thrown off by force, but you can accept and investigate the experience ... something needs to be clearly seen, what is it?

The cloak, the cloak, the cloak is protecting itself. The habit of protection, of defensiveness is just doing its thing, round and round. The Cloak is building itself up with more threads, intervowens.

Yes! Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Just a habit protecting nothing. Can this really be? Nothing to protect! What is that like?

Disconcerting, it doesn’t really make sense intellectually. I mean, I had to protect my individuality so hard growing up. Even my basic needs, I had to fight for them at times. My right to exist as an individual has felt hard to get. All my protection mechanisms have allowed me to get where I am now, without them I would just be a shadow, living somebody else’s life.
But I agree a lot of that (all of it?)has now just become habitual and mostly painful.
If there is no ‘me’ then there is no need to defend it.

Letting that sink deeper, there is a sense of relief and lightness. Al this protecting takes sooo much effort and energy, it would be amazing not to have to do it all the time.
Spaciousness.

OK: so next time you have the space, and notice this going on, can you explore what is going on when 'MY' is added in to the raw immediate experience?
Have fun investigating 'my' and 'mine' :-)

I’m going slightly blank here.

Cat: interesting, sweet, free, crazy. My cat: should behave a bit better, it’s a reflection on me, shouldn’t go to the neighbours so much.
The broken lotus candle: beautiful, ordinary, when shall I light it up?. My broken lotus candle: guilt for breaking it, irritation toward the packaging that was so hard to work out, don’t light it, keep it here.

My: tensing, worrying, judging, wanting to protect, to keep safe. Paranoia. Holding tightly. Closing down. Need to control, restrict.

There’s an identification that takes place when something is seen as mine. My shiny chandelier makes me feel shiny, my crazy cat reflects my own craziness, etc...

Mostly there seem to be judgement: should be better, bigger or not be there at all (my headache, should have gone by now!)

There’s a reducing, a constricting/tensing around the thing, which tries to control it, but also diminish it.

There is not so much appreciating and enjoying.
Not a lot of joy or freedom.

Probably all I can do today,

xxx

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

I've got gastroenteritits and a massive headache with it.

oh dear, double yuk, hope they have passed by now :-(

I had to protect my individuality so hard growing up. Even my basic needs, I had to fight for them at times. My right to exist as an individual has felt hard to get. All my protection mechanisms have allowed me to get where I am now, without them I would just be a shadow, living somebody else’s life.

yes - the mechanisms have done a job ... even though there was an illusion woven into them, they nevertheless had an important part to play in protecting the growing organism called Stephanie.

Indeed, these protection mechanisms have have been essential to create the 'you' that is now able to see that there never was a 'you' to protect.

They were necessary at the time - I don't think this stage is avoidable - but there comes a time when what was protection becomes a prison.

Can you honour and respect these mechanisms for the good that they have done in the past, and yet let them go as no longer helpful?

Al this protecting takes sooo much effort and energy, it would be amazing not to have to do it all the time.

the habits may well carry on for a while - that is the nature of habit - but having see that there is nothing to protect, can you ever again get thoroughly caught up in the process? Do you "have to" do it any more?

re My and Mine - good observations ... so is there any 'my' or 'mine' in reality? If 'my' and 'mine' can be created and dropped in thought like this, is the same true of the 'I' that 'owns'? Can 'I' and 'mine' be found in direct experience, or only in thoughts added on?

x
Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,

Blimey you stayed up late!. Gastro is better thanks, at least the headache is gone.

This morning I just sat in meditation (an insight practice I do which is basically like pure awareness, remaining in the whole of my present experience and asking ‘what is this?’). Because much much fear was arising this morning again. I saw that the fear was a movement of closing down, restricting and that is was impermanent and I couldn’t find ‘me’ in it. Compassion arose and a widening took place. Then all sorts of painful memories arose and I could tangibly see how that was creating a story that build a thick wall between ‘me’ and people or rather a thickness of me-ness. I met that with compassion and this has left me very sad.

Can you honour and respect these mechanisms for the good that they have done in the past, and yet let them go as no longer helpful?

I think that’s what I’m trying to do in the sitting (and the relaxing in the last couple of days). Just allowing compassion to meet that fully without getting into the content too much. There’s a fine line somewhere between ‘let go’ and ‘wishing away’!! mmmh, I think what I’ll do is that I’ll try to actually say ‘thank you’ each time one of those mechanism, story, memory arises. Then see that I don’t need it anymore, or that I don’t need to do it right now at least.

I feel like I’m going round in a circle.
I can see how my thoughts take me away from my present & direct experience, which makes this looking difficult. When I ‘look’ I see bits of how selfing works, but as soon as I stop looking I am back to my normal ways, with this constant talking in my head that keeps me distant from life. And sometimes I can’t even go back to seeing what I saw before.

re My and Mine - good observations ... so is there any 'my' or 'mine' in reality? If 'my' and 'mine' can be created and dropped in thought like this, is the same true of the 'I' that 'owns'? Can 'I' and 'mine' be found in direct experience, or only in thoughts added on?

YESTERDAY I wrote in my notes:
That cloak of self and defensiveness is so heavy and sticky. It sticks to me and everything around. Or rather it makes everything stick to it, grasping at things, pulling them in and making things ‘me’, part of ‘me’. ME, is like a big building project, that even includes the phone and the laptop - it’s all Me Me Me....now that is ridiculous!!! I am a megalomaniac, as it turns out!!!

Is there a me that owns this laptop? This thought about the laptop? I don’t know. It seems something is definitively STICKY there. The heart’s answer is Joy and ‘NO’, but I also feel drawn back and stuck. There doesn’t seem to be any ‘me’, ‘I’, ‘owner’ outside of thoughts – yet I still believe them – why is that?

Hey, I have to get ready for work and stop crying – or keep crying as the case may be.

Thanks,

Padma

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

You're on track, good work!

There’s a fine line somewhere between ‘let go’ and ‘wishing away’!!

yes, it is as much 'letting come' and 'letting be' as 'letting go' ... neither accepting nor rejecting, just seeing.

I feel like I’m going round in a circle.

life does repeat itself, of course - so much experience is constrained by habit - but every time you see clearly into something you had previously taken for granted, a little progress is made. From over here, it doesn't look like you're going round in a circle, it looks like you're inching towards the gate.

as soon as I stop looking I am back to my normal ways, with this constant talking in my head that keeps me distant from life. And sometimes I can’t even go back to seeing what I saw before.

this is normal, don't worry about it ... you're doing great work, it will bear fruit. The continued existence of habitual mental patterns is to be expected - even post-gate, 'selfing habits' still arise (though they are more readily seen through and dropped).

There doesn’t seem to be any ‘me’, ‘I’, ‘owner’ outside of thoughts – yet I still believe them – why is that?

Good question! Look deeper - what is 'belief' in direct experience RIGHT NOW? Don't worry about remembering belief happening at another time, but look at this 'belief' as it is right here and now ... what is it exactly that you are labelling 'belief'? Is there belief right now, or only in remembering habitual thoughts?

best wishes,

Perry

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
This is a short one today, though sometimes they are the best looking’s.

yes, it is as much 'letting come' and 'letting be' as 'letting go' ... neither accepting nor rejecting, just seeing.

Yes, yes!! Easily said and need to remind myself - no pushing, just looking, turn up, be honest, be present, allow the unfolding.

Look deeper - what is 'belief' in direct experience RIGHT NOW?

Beliefs about self seem to be a convenient way of operating. A habitual way of operating that has been left unquestioned.
Superficiality springs to mind.
How do I un-believe? By becoming aware of the habit? By seeing it for what it is?
Thoughts stick very tightly to awareness. It’s very difficult to separate the two: “I am aware, therefore ‘I’ exist”
Still wondering what awareness is? It could be what I am taking as 'the owner'.

mmh...seem to have gone into a deeper layer of looking.
That's my week end sorted then!

I am very grateful for all your encouragements, i'd be quite lost without your feedback and kindness,
I appreciate every little pointers and pushes, they all keep me going.
Thank you,

Padma

[stephanie padma]

Hi Perry,
I had a good long look this morning:

Look deeper - what is 'belief' in direct experience RIGHT NOW? look at this 'belief' as it is right here and now ... what is it exactly that you are labelling 'belief'? Is there belief right now, or only in remembering habitual thoughts?

These ‘I’, ‘me’ thoughts, I want to believe them – I think they are true because:
They are so ‘in my face’, so habitual, it is hard to see the wood from the trees.

They do have memory attached to them, like a trail, that makes them weighty, very weighty and gives them credibility. The memory of me from way back when until now via yesterday.

They are so habitual they make deep groves, deep tracks, I feel rather buried in there.

They are confirmed and validated by language and culture all the time. (‘my car’, how could the car be mine?? It’s a metal thing and I’m human psycho-biological thing!)

They are so recognisable, so familiar, the most familiar things in the world, that they must be ‘real’ or true.
Ooooh, hang on, they are real, but that doesn’t mean they are true: must look more.

xx

[stephanie padma]

Dear Perry,
Since yesterday I have been exhausted and realised that I have been ‘pushing’ again, to see, striving and getting frustrated.
So I have just been trying to rest and just drop the looking into the heart and nothing else. Probably still ‘looking’ too much, Alas a bit differently.
Each time I look, even if it’s just for a moment I get these little jerkiness, twitching and shaking movements in my neck and shoulders.
There’s much sadness in my heart, because of the separation from truth and the tiredness of carrying the weight of the cloak.
There is Joy too at knowing that seeing truth is possible, but doubts are quick to come in at that point in form of thoughts and images and distraction. The veil is there, right in front of my view.
Tonight I felt several times that I just wanted to turn around, look at ‘something’ and say ‘NO, Enough’

Padma
x

[perrym]

Hi Padma,

Sorry, I've found it hard to get time at the computer again the last couple of days. I'll answer post-by-post....

Look deeper - what is 'belief' in direct experience RIGHT NOW?

Beliefs about self seem to be a convenient way of operating. A habitual way of operating that has been left unquestioned.

I couldn't argue with this as a definition of belief, but I was looking for something a bit different - for you to examine what 'belief' is in "direct experience"

By "direct experience" I mean something quite specific - it is the sense experience and thoughts-contents that make up an experience. So for example, if I ask "what, in direct experience, do you mean by being hungry?", the answer might be something like "there is a tightness in my abdomen, images of food arise thoughts, and when they do, there is an urge to get up and find food" ... these are the bare components of the experience, as opposed to "being hungry is when i want to eat!", which would be just giving a 'definition' of hunger, replacing one label with another.

So I'm interested in what you mean by 'belief' - what is going on in direct experience that you label as 'belief'?

Maybe this seems like a funny question - "everyone knows what belief means!" - but we need to be looking at what is obvious with fresh eyes. Don't worry if you can't put it into words easily - the important thing is to look, not to take it for granted.

This kind of belief may not be going on right now - in which case, take a look when it does arise.

Find out what is going on, what it is made up of, and particularly, whether it is true to say that "I believe" - is there an "I" doing it, or is it (whatever it is) just happening?

How do I un-believe?

Don't worry about unbelieving right now - just look really closely at the 'belief process'.

Still wondering what awareness is?

Do tell me if you find out :-)

It could be what I am taking as 'the owner'.

well ... is it what you are taking as 'the owner'? Sometimes, in searching for 'I, the owner', people do settle for a while with thoughts along the lines of 'I am awareness, my experience is owned by awareness' .... is this convincing?

x
Perry