looking for a guide

[pop]

Argh!! Shit. Frustration. I know there's no me.
It's life. I see it in the moment when everything drops away but it comes burning back.
The frustration is just a thought/emotion too.
A defence?
On the plus side, so to desk, I'm looking closer now.
I feel if I'd a whole day to look it'd help.
However I know you'll say just look NOW and it's over!

[pop]

[Typo. should read so to speak. Not so to desk]

[Xain]

This is hard to maintain when busy.

I am unsure what you mean by this. What is being 'maintained'?

For example even in stillness when i focus on sound i dont feel the clothes.

Good observation.
What listening to a wonderful piece of music, there is just the pure experience of the music only - No experiencer. The enjoyment of the music is in the fact that it takes away the illusion of 'I'.

Argh!! Shit. Frustration. I know there's no me.

Just a mental understanding I assume. Yes?

It's life. I see it in the moment when everything drops away but it comes burning back.

Yes. But the 'coming burning back' is witnessed. Is it witnessed by anything?

The frustration is just a thought/emotion too.

Yes. A thought that is believed in. 'I' won't get it, 'I' need more time. Mind utterly rejects this notion of no-self. It needs conflict to survive, and continue to state 'I', 'me'. The more conflict, the more the sense of 'I' is empowered.
It needs time too. Future and past. All thought is time based.
It rejects the immediate moment and either creates frustration when examined or completely disappears.

I feel if I'd a whole day to look it'd help.
However I know you'll say just look NOW and it's over!

Indeed. Why do you think time is needed?
All time would give you is the time for the mind to work its tricks and fool you into trying to understand something that cannot be understood.

Xain ♥

[pop]

It feels like it couldn't be this easy. Doubt.
I've tried to look at this as a false sense of self.
This has been helpful as it seems to be where a sense of self is functioning.
It's all just thoughts upon thoughts upon thoughts but there's something stopping me accept this.

[Xain]

It feels like it couldn't be this easy. Doubt.

Oh Yes, it is this easy. You see 'easy' is a mind term.
Mind demands that the answer requires a struggle - It doesn't! In fact, the mental struggle itself will prevent you from getting it - Do you see?
It is the simplest thing! It is BEFORE THOUGHT. It is simply here. It is always here.

It's all just thoughts upon thoughts upon thoughts but there's something stopping me accept this.

Yes, another thought :-) But you are not your thoughts or your mind are you?

Do you know what your next thought is going to be?

Think a thought - Anything at all.
Closely examine your Direct Experience - Where did the thought come from?
What created it? Or is there just thoughts appearing. Not appear 'in' something or created 'by' something?

Xain ♥

[pop]

Ok heres whats going on. Two seperate things.
I know theres no self cos i cant find it. Yet i think - i know, think- that i need to check everywhere.
Which will actually drag on to infinity! There is me labels everywhere.
And i keep checking the same places.
I say theres no self because when i look i find none.
Then i thought comes - which ive alreafy seen isnt me- suggesting i look again somewhere else.
I look. Find nothing. And so it goes.

The second thing - actually possibly causing the first now that i "think" about it - is that i feel the bulk of my presence in the world as a nagging reminder of a self.
I know there is being. Life manifesting. Theres no manager. But it still sits in my mind as a kink in flow of being.

And to directly answer your final question, the thoughts just appear from nowhere like itches do.
You scratch your self and another comes. You attach to a thought and it encourages another.

Im also seeing how others are trapped in thought.
I realise its not me. Though i get entangled sometimes.

[pop]

Wait. Awareness. Ive been attaching a self to awareness.
Looking at thoughts i see through them and think im but containing them and the other skandhas in awareness.
But actually this might not be so. Or awareness isnt a permenant thing.
I need to look directly at awareness. Or what i call awareness.
Is this making sense.

[Xain]

I know theres no self cos i cant find it. Yet i think - i know, think- that i need to check everywhere.

Mind demands it. However, the simplicity is either you find an 'I' or you don't. That is all that is needed.

I say theres no self because when i look i find none

Indeed.

Then i thought comes - which ive alreafy seen isnt me- suggesting i look again somewhere else.

Thoughts come, yes. Thoughts are experienced just like all the other senses. Hearing has sounds, seeing has objects, thinking has thoughts. All appearing in experience. None of them with an owner.
A thought comes. It demands something. Is there something there that has to do what is demanded?
Why not smile at them, see them for the illusion that they are and let them pass?

. . . is that i feel the bulk of my presence in the world as a nagging reminder of a self.

In relation to the mind, the mind constantly works to maintain the illusion of self.
It grabs experience after the event and labels it 'I'. There is hearing, mind grabs it and says 'I hear'.
There are thoughts, mind grabs it and says 'I think'. However, just like Santa Claus, when you search for this 'I' you find there is nothing there.

Wait. Awareness. Ive been attaching a self to awareness.

Not 100% certain of what you mean here, unless you mean as another trap.
Initially we take ourselves to be body and mind. Then we educate ourselves to know this is wrong and then trap ourselves thinking we are 'awareness'. Mind is happy that it has another concept it can attach itself to.
However, any mental concept of what we are is wrong.

Xain ♥

[pop]

Shit no way! There is the feeling of life. And theres the thought.
Theres nothing else. Theres no me. Just these two. Feeling of life. And thought.
A gap between the two. No me.
How weird!
I just started laughing. Or rather laughing came.
The gap between feeling life and thought is maybe just noticing no me.
Its hard to explain.
I got to stay wuth this. Thanks.
I will be on tomorrow evening.

[Xain]

Yes, I understand.
'Feeling of life' is a good description. Everything just 'is'. Nothing else is needed.

Its hard to explain.

Yes, words at this point (as I think you've found) start to become difficult.

I got to stay with this

Is there an 'I' that has a choice to stay or not?

Xain ♥

[pop]

So firstly thank you Xian.
Secondly there is no I to stay with it just excitement.
Not much sleep last night.
It is like noticing going over a waterfall.
A huge 'going over' continuously. With thought tiny and desperately paddling against it.
Now what xian? It feels like the tip of something much bigger.
So funny - just look. Then a slight adjustment. I saw i was attaching a "me" to the flow of Life.
Then i looked again and there was a "missing" and a silence.
Altho i wasnt observing as such there was just Life, thought and a realising of something gone or evaporated.

[Xain]

That was a lovely reply, Pop. Its very pleasing for me to see what a beautiful thing you have uncovered.

What next? Everything. There are no start or end points.

For our process here, there are a further range of about 6 questions which will just fully confirm and may solidify things further for you. After that, potentially further questions from other Guides.

Here are the first two questions. Feel free to take your time and elaborate if you feel the need.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Xain ♥

[pop]

Theres no self me or I.
There never was. Its like a kink or tangle in the flow of Life.
There is nothing. Nothing. There was a misinterpretation.
But once this was seen it vanished.
Except there was nothing except the misinterpretation to vanish.
Its all verb ing and no noun ing.
During work today the self ing briefly began. But like an old habit.
Immediately it was seen and dissolved. Like a fatally wounded animal trying to get up now and then.
Once or twice something happened that would have irritated "me".
The thought arose in reaction to situation but it was comical as there was none of the emotional negativity so the "irritsted" thought just passed by naked.
However the day generally altho very hectic and busy just flowed by.
Things seemed utterly different on one level yet the same on another.
I still went to work. Why not. Just let life get on with it.
Problems arose as usual in a day but they werent problems just how things were happening.
I laughed out loud here and there.
The simplicity. The endless seeking that could go on.
And the pointless suffering and anger among some people.

Starting the process i really thought it could not be that easy as described.
Like NOW. LOOK.
Yet i did suspect it was way essier than many think. Mainly from talking with people in person and reading some things.
And the Pali Canon suggests it. The whispering trsdition and all that. Versus we need to pay for the slates on the roof tradition.
I became frustrated as from your posts i realised how close and real reality is.
I began to trust you. Yet i wasnt sure how to look.
Then i read a passage from the gatecrashers book about how the flow of life couldnt be Me.
You had said similar about there will be a sense of being but this isnt an I.
And i got out of bed and sat in a chair and looked at the thoughts then the sense of being.
And it just clicked. There was no Me.
Oh and i had noticed that using "me" instead of self or I was easier for me.
Post realisation of no self i find it harder to say how "I" feel.
But i want to sit and absorb it. The day has been magical.
Little things happening here and there.
A lovely relaxation.
I was speaking too low at times too i noticed. People couldnt always hear me.
Also i noticed when i nearly said an untruth. Like really noticed. A jolt. I rephrased immediately.
That was nice.
But its that empty ness. That light ness.
The shift. Wow. so bizare. Just a gentle reslignment and everything that "I" knew gone.
Yet total sense too.
I will be on again. Bit raw still. Havent had time to be still since i realigned.
I feel real gratitude to you too xain.

[Xain]

(Your previous reply was answer to question 1 and 2)

I feel real gratitude to you too xain.

You are very welcome. You repay me by telling me all about this wonderful realisation.
It makes me very happy to see.

The next two questions:

3) You have seen through the illusion of no self. During our conversation, was there a specific moment that pushed you over, made you look and realise?

4) Imagine you were talking to someone who had never heard of this 'illusion of self'. Could you explain in detail what the illusion is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Xain ♥

[pop]

Hi Xian,

So I felt i was hitting a wall with the thoughts.
I could see how they weren't a fixed me. yet something was holding me bacl.
Looking back now i was under the impression (not looking at direct experience!) that no-self would wipe out a sense of aliveness or being.
When you said on April 14:
"Then take a look in your Direct Experience.
Does this 'presence of aliveness' experience things.
Or is there just 'experience', with nothing found that does the experiencing?"

Then on April 15 this: "Experience is always here. We'd be foolish to deny it."

Something started to dawn. or at least a new conceptual framework was allowed in.
I started reading gatecrashers around then and Iona says to Eric "...the very last thing the deep presence of reality could be is you..."
It occurred to me that i had no idea of how i had been responding to this presence.
It had been confusing me. i think i thought (!) that that sense of reality was what had to disappear.
I sat in a chair and looked directly at this. I saw the thoughts. Fine. then i saw this sesne of being and realised No! no "me" there. And there was nothing left then. Incredible!
then there was just sitting in the flow of it all. no I me mine just a flow of beautiful life. No "I" What a relief!
I then thought "WHAT!?". there was just being. a gap too where something used to be yet never really was. like a kink starightened or an eddy in the ater flowing onwrds.
Laughing came then. And more "What!?" then laughing (laughed a bit next day too)
So simple! And yet so fundemnetally different. BOOM! never again will things be the same.
Yet things are the same. they are now seen as they are tho. without the story.