Would love to see that I am not there.

[silentarrow]

Cool, I see you got to intellectual understanding now and it's only a matter of really seeing it.

If you can, get outside into some park, just sit somewhere and observe what is going on, notice how everything moves and wiggles, including clouds, wind, trees, animals, people, including your body.
Watch the totality of all and notice how thoughts about experience are part of experience moving by.

Notice, that noticing happens all by itself, effortlessly.
There is no one to see, but seeing happening.

Report back after this.

hmm, Okay I did that today.
Actually today, I was noticing things a little differently.
Actually, I am noticing things a little differently since my last post here.
I can kind of see that i was tying my shoe laces, but no one was saying "hey, I am doing that"
I could see that when I was walking, there were just thought and there was the body walking.
The thought that I am walking or the sensation that I am looking from behind my face, was also a little less.
Sometimes, only sometimes, I feel as if I dont have a head at all.
And then the image of my face comes back.
noticing happens and then the thought comes that I am noticing.
But, that's a thought too.

So, that's my report.

Faraz

[Ilona]

you are right there staring at what is. it's a matter of accepting it. surrendering in other words.

tell me now, is there a 'me' inside or outside body as a separate entity?
what is real?

[silentarrow]

you are right there staring at what is. it's a matter of accepting it. surrendering in other words.

To tell the truth, I dont feel like I am right there. I mean I dont feel liberated.

what is real?

Well, I dont understand this question.

tell me now, is there a 'me' inside or outside body as a separate entity?

hmm, there does seem to be someone inside the body.
but when I focus on it, it seems that it is the image of my face.
but it still feels like I am here and I dont feel liberated.

[Ilona]

you haven't crossed yet, all i'm saying you are right at the gate. staring the truth at the face.
let's talk about the sense of self.

there is no sense of self.
there is s sense of being, aliveness, am-ness, aware, but it is here with or without the label 'Self'.
look into this feeling and tell me if it's personal. is it here in between the thoughts? what is here when thoughts stop? does that need to be labelled 'me' to be here?

keep going. close now. see how all is unfolding effortlessly.

[silentarrow]

you haven't crossed yet, all i'm saying you are right at the gate. staring the truth at the face.
let's talk about the sense of self.

there is no sense of self.
there is s sense of being, aliveness, am-ness, aware, but it is here with or without the label 'Self'.
look into this feeling and tell me if it's personal. is it here in between the thoughts? what is here when thoughts stop? does that need to be labelled 'me' to be here?

keep going. close now. see how all is unfolding effortlessly.

there is no sense of self.
there is s sense of being, aliveness, am-ness, aware, but it is here with or without the label 'Self'.
look into this feeling and tell me if it's personal.

well, I do feel a sense of self. or beingness or amness.
but it does appear personal.

what is here when thoughts stop?

well, that sense of beingness or amness is still there, when thoughts stop.

does that need to be labelled 'me' to be here?

no, it doesnt need any labels at all. its just here.

[Ilona]

so what does the thought I/ ME point to if not other thoughts about i or me? anything real?

[silentarrow]

so what does the thought I/ ME point to if not other thoughts about i or me? anything real?

well, it seems that the thought I/ME points to the body.

[Ilona]

Seems? This word points to not looking. Look again.
What does your name point to?
What does cat's/ dogs name point to?
Isn't name just a label? Can name do anything?

How about words I/ me? What are they pointing to? Body? Yes, fine, in reference with other bodies, as agreement. Word me points to this body. Like word mind points to this stream of thoughts. An agreement.

But is there a you, other than in thoughts about you?

Me is same like batman.
Is there a batman in you room?
Look, is there? But you don't need to look , you already know its fiction. And character/ entity 'me' is fiction too.

So, are you the body? How does it work?

Keep talking. It's getting close.

[silentarrow]

What does your name point to?
What does cat's/ dogs name point to?

well, my name points to my body and a cat's/dogs name point to their body.

Isn't name just a label? Can name do anything?

Yes, name is just a label which points to the body.
But a name can't do anything at all.
A name is part of the story.

But is there a you, other than in thoughts about you?

Well, I can see it this way. If there are no thoughts at all,
then there is no me or you at all.
then there's just a body doing whatever it's doing.
But when thoughts are there, they refer to the body as me.
So, it's a thought which says "I am the body" and combined with the image of the body
it is quite a strong feeling.
But still, a thought cannot be the body.
So, when a thought says I am the body, it is just impossible.
Body is body and thought is, well, just thought and a thought cant be the body.

Me is same like batman.
Is there a batman in you room?
Look, is there? But you don't need to look , you already know its fiction. And character/ entity 'me' is fiction too.

Hmm, I can see that now.
if there's no thoughts going on and no story going on, then there's no entity me.
then the body is just sitting quietly. It's only a thought which says I am this body.
The body doesnt say I am this body. it's just a thought.
And yes, the character/entity me is a fiction.
part of the story.
If there's no story, there's no me.

So, are you the body? How does it work?

Whether I say I am the body or I am not the body,
it will still be just a thought saying that I am the body or I am not the body.
And there's no way that a thought can be the body.
A thought is just a thought.
Now, the stumbling block seems to be that this thought I am the body
seems to be coming from the image.
It's like that this image of my body (and this image is in my mind).
It seems that this image is saying that I am the body.
But I can also see that an image cant say anything or be a body.
An image is just an image. just a lifeless image.
So, it cant say that it's the body.
but I get tricked when the thought I am the body seems to be coming from this image of mine.
And well, I can see that now.
The image cant be the body.
The thought cant be the body.

That's it from me.

[Ilona]

Ok, look closer.
Can a thought think?
Can thought do things?
If no, then what is going on?
Describe the best you can.

[silentarrow]

Ok, look closer.
Can a thought think?
Can thought do things?

No, a thought cannot think. It just appears out of nowhere.
A thought can't do things either.
It just takes credit for the things the body does.
But,umm, I can see that it cant take credit either.
That's just another thought that comes up that says I did this.
But it's not a thought taking credit. It's just another thought.

If no, then what is going on?
Describe the best you can.

hmm, what's going on?
let's see.
okay, I have to think a bit more about this one.
Will post later.

[silentarrow]

Ok, look closer.
Can a thought think?
Can thought do things?

No, a thought cannot think. It just appears out of nowhere.
A thought can't do things either.
It just takes credit for the things the body does.
But,umm, I can see that it cant take credit either.
That's just another thought that comes up that says I did this.
But it's not a thought taking credit. It's just another thought.

If no, then what is going on?
Describe the best you can.

Okay, I have been thinking about this one.
I could say that I am not liberated.
But that's the story character saying this.
But then, where's the story character.
I can see thoughts and these thoughts seem to be coming from the character.
I mean, it appears as if it's the character that is doing the thinking.
But I can't find a place or a point where the thinking seems to be coming from.

the thoughts are just appearing out of nowhere
and yet this inquiry is going on.
So, is the character/ entity me doing this enquiry process?
well, it does seem like it.
but then the only proof I have of this character is the image I have in my mind.
but it still seems like I am here in my body.
I dont know what to think anymore.

It seems the thought or entity me is so tied up to the sense of I am/ beingness
that it is so difficult to see that the character is not there.

Now, I really dont know what else to say.
Need some help here.

[Ilona]

ok, tere are lots of thought coming up and running in circles trying to resolve this confusion. only way to resolve it is by looking at what actually is.

there is no you at all in reality, only thoughts about you. a story, that is going on in a head. you already saw, that story is going on by itself. you already saw that there is no thinker. now do the maths.

is there a you to be liberated?

[silentarrow]

ok, tere are lots of thought coming up and running in circles trying to resolve this confusion. only way to resolve it is by looking at what actually is.

there is no you at all in reality, only thoughts about you. a story, that is going on in a head. you already saw, that story is going on by itself. you already saw that there is no thinker. now do the maths.

is there a you to be liberated?

Okay, I was pondering on this and looking hard, the whole day today and when I came to post here,
I saw your reply.
Okay, I can see that I was kind of getting a little intellectual about this and trying to use logic.
But I have really looked today without trying to intellectualize.
I tried to look for the one who is in control, the one who makes the decisions.
But there are only thoughts and then all of a sudden the body decides to act upon one of those
thoughts.
Now, I cant find the one who can choose which thought to act upon.
I noticed how a thought came that I should drink water and then the body went ahead and drank some water.
But the thought came from nowhere and there was no one who chose to act on it.

When I focus and look at what is here right now?
I find a sensation of the self. when I focus on it, it's a thought saying I am here.
It's a thought saying I am the controller.
But I have also seen that a thought cant control.
It just appears out of nowhere.

is there a you to be liberated?

is there a me to be liberated?
well, when I look what's here now.
It's the sensation of I am combined with the thought I am here.
But a sensation doesn't need to be liberated.
A thought doesnt need to be liberated.

but even though I have seen all that.
I dont feel liberated.
the sensation that I am here seems to be overpowering all my looking.
I still feel separate.

What do I do now?

[Ilona]

what is it that needs to be liberated?

the sensation is not gonna dissapear. no bright lights, no gongs. what do you expect that it should feel like?