The Gate

Hi Vince,

An addendum regarding how the I thing is maintained: wanting something conceptual especially if there is an emotional component to the desire, even if it's not clear what's wanted.

Love,

Anton

And identifying with preferences.

just another movement of experience postulating...

What would be "postulating" ? (one word)

Even seeing is invisible. There is only recognizing.

Interesting. Seeing is invisible. You can't see seeing? So being aware of seeing is just another seen thought?

Now give me a comment on the Recognizing.

No, effort seems to be a function of resolving perceived incongruity. Is there a distinction going by me here?

Just "no" would have been good answer. :)

No, not in the presentation or perception of things, but there is the word, intention, which is relative to movement, or teleology. Intention is in process, not in perception.

"no" would have done it here too. Anton, this is important.
When you say "no" and stop (mentally) talking. The "no" resonates like a bell. It lingers. It has an aftertaste that directs a perspective.
When you babble on, that is lost. It stops you from SEEing. It keeps you locked in the intellectual realm.
Consider extremely short answers. No explanation, just a reporting of experiencing. Just description.

The only thing closer than my nose it the thought that I have one. "A thinker thinking thoughts." Which, ultimately is a thought itself

Now you're getting hot.
Now, don't look At the thoughts or their contents. Just look at the flow, at the stream of mind stuff passing into and out of consciousness. Now here's the good bit. Once you have gauged the tempo of the flow of thoughts, you can LOOK between them. LOOK into the space behind them by LOOKing through the space between them.
This is just one portal. It is to be approached without mental discourse. It is Experiential by nature.

love

vince

What would be "postulating" ? (one word)

mind

Now give me a comment on the Recognizing.

Recognizing also just happens.

"no" would have done it here too. Anton, this is important.
When you say "no" and stop (mentally) talking. The "no" resonates like a bell. It lingers. It has an aftertaste that directs a perspective.
When you babble on, that is lost. It stops you from SEEing. It keeps you locked in the intellectual realm.
Consider extremely short answers. No explanation, just a reporting of experiencing. Just description.

OK

Now, don't look At the thoughts or their contents. Just look at the flow, at the stream of mind stuff passing into and out of consciousness. Now here's the good bit. Once you have gauged the tempo of the flow of thoughts, you can LOOK between them. LOOK into the space behind them by LOOKing through the space between them.
This is just one portal. It is to be approached without mental discourse. It is Experiential by nature.

love

vince

Thank you. This can be done during any activity or is it also useful to spend some time in meditation?

Love,

Anton

This can be done during any activity or is it also useful to spend some time in meditation?

Don't turn it into a Doing. Allow it to be a happening.
Where does the thought come from that says, "Ah, I'll go looking now..." ?
From the same place, the results of Looking and Seeing will come.

Anton, consider a new baby. Can you describe the influences that give birth to the illusion of an I ?

love

vince

Don't turn it into a Doing. Allow it to be a happening.
Where does the thought come from that says, "Ah, I'll go looking now..." ?
From the same place, the results of Looking and Seeing will come.

Anton, consider a new baby. Can you describe the influences that give birth to the illusion of an I ?

Conceptual thought re-enforced by language?

Love,

Anton

Now, don't look At the thoughts or their contents. Just look at the flow, at the stream of mind stuff passing into and out of consciousness. Now here's the good bit. Once you have gauged the tempo of the flow of thoughts, you can LOOK between them. LOOK into the space behind them by LOOKing through the space between them.
This is just one portal. It is to be approached without mental discourse. It is Experiential by nature.

What seems to be happening is "oh, there's a thought...oh, there's a thought....oh there's a thought...." Is that what you mean? So far what's different is that the connection between faith and concepts clicked in. Concepts is faith. I've been railing against having or living by faith and my life is a string of concepts. I feel kind of silly, but not embarrassed. It's kind of soaking in. Having a chuckle reading that, shaking my head and smiling. This feels like a gold mind for some reason. Hey. There's a concept! :)

Love, Anton

Hey, just thought of a good one: I've a Monty Python T-shirt that says I'm not dead yet. I could wear it til my name turns blue.

Love,

Anton :) rofl

Anton, consider a new baby. Can you describe the influences that give birth to the illusion of an I ?
Conceptual thought re-enforced by language?

Do you think that the baby start out with conceptual thinking ? (you can give me a short paragraph to flesh out the influences that start the idea of a self here)

Concepts is faith. I've been railing against having or living by faith and my life is a string of concepts.

This is the pivotal point. Concepts are useful, in fact necessary to communicate as well as to navigate daily living. There content is just not current Reality. The response to the content is.
The next step is to distinguish between those conceptual stories that are useful and those that instigate or result in suffering.
A story i use is that everything ebbs and flows or fluctuates in a way that balances. So if i take credit for a good golf shot, can i not take debit for a bad one ? i can feel good after a well placed shot without convincing myself that i am good. i can feel disappointed after a bad one without denigrating this organisms ability. There is also a knowing that the next shot after a good one or a bad one is influenced by the previous one to the extent that i think about it, whereas i see others wanting to go home after a few bad ones and can clearly see the downward spiral that they enter. (sad, really)
Hmm, i'm allowed to be verbose. Just don't get into a discussion about this. Just your report your current experiencing.

I've a Monty Python T-shirt that says I'm not dead yet.

You'd have to circle the "I'm" and then you'd need another (soon) that says "The I is dead, but the organism is freed - Life-ing is Wonder-Full"

Do you think that the baby start out with conceptual thinking ? (you can give me a short paragraph to flesh out the influences that start the idea of a self here)

No, the baby must start out as a blank in action. The brain in some ways, the parts that make for memories and habits, must be like a cell. It goes from a unity that doesn't distinguish anything to a mechanism that divides things into smaller and smaller parts. At some point it uses ego as a device to distinguish the body boundary from what's outside it. That boundary is re-enforced by the sensing of consequence. A ball hitting the wall is seen. A ball hitting the body is seen and felt. It learns to respond to a name.

Then there are patterns in the divisions. What goes up comes down unless it is caught or stuck. Using "patterns" as a concept, there's an assumption that information can correspond to experience, repeatability, and calculation. So past and future are born as concepts useful insofar as to the degree they are 1/1 to reality. But the extrapolation of concepts influenced by patterns taken to be "true" that aren't present experience can make for family values, culture, morality, and faith. These are immediately necessary for the survival of the organism, but failing to be examined tend to solidify int habitual world views which substitute fro immediate perception and the ideologue is born and lives out its patterns as if true, until there is a shock or curiosity reveals inconsistencies which are pursued to their logical conclusions if there is a sufficient sense of continuity that allays fear of a changed world view.

Sorry, Vince, for me that is short. Very short. I could write essays on parts of any of that. I have.

~~~

There seems to be a re-wiring of sorts going on around the concepts/faith idea. It can be seen that lots happens as life action from taking a concept as present moment fact when this is not the case. So driving is happening and a story comes on and is running about...whatever... and "whoa..that's just a story, driving is happening" and even the idea of "I caught a story" is a story. There is just recognition of perception, but it seems to be something that is organic, like a shoot coming through the snow in a wind that alternately buries and reveals it.

Clearly the I thought must as well be a concept despite its familiarity an the tendency to go with it. But stopping it isn't the solution. Just seeing seeing is what seems to make a difference, as weakly as that seems to happen and as somewhat infrequently. Does any of that make sense??? It seems less like "I have to cook dinner now" and moving in the direction of "Hmmm, stomach's growling, time to fix something; what's in the frig?" Doesn't seem like any great shakes, but somehow something is a shade different.

~~~

Yeah, cute about the shirt. Seems to be more interest in seeing what's going on now than in what might happen later, without trying to make a novel about it. It'll be nice when it happens, whatever "it" is. Whatever "when" is. Now is OK with its own contents of possibilities. I enjoy answering your questions. It just feels new, even with bits of commentary and evaluation going on in my head. It feels like it will just unfold as it will. My head? rofl. Jeeez! That's the thought of "me." So it goes.

Love,

Anton

So it occurs to me on the way home from the store that looking for or experiencing some kind of change as a result or goal or proof is itself not the point. What's looking doesn't change and isn't involved in the "result," however pleasing or not that might be. Looking between thoughts must be for looking at looking.

Sorry, Vince, for me that is short. Very short.

Anton, that is pretty much what i asked for.
The first paragraph was very good. The second started to abandon the 'everyman' version of english a bit. But all in all, it was fine.

There seems to be a re-wiring of sorts going on around the concepts/faith idea.

Both literally and metaphorically. The brain is developing new synaptic connections which are forming new neuronal pathways. (it's a story i temporarily believe.) This in turn is developing new perceptual skills.

like a shoot coming through the snow in a wind that alternately buries and reveals it.

Great analogy. ..and like a shoot it will grow and reveal itself like an Oak tree to be solid and strong and beautiful. Fully textured.

Clearly the I thought must as well be a concept despite its familiarity an the tendency to go with it.

(Although i totally agree) This sounds like a story. Why would i say that ?

Does any of that make sense???

Yes, perfect sense. Lovely. i feel like an expectant father at the moment, and i'm grinning all over.

but somehow something is a shade different.

It is often said (well i've said it a couple of times) that with liberation, nothing changes but everything is different.

It'll be nice when it happens, whatever "it" is.

Remember the 'closer than your nose' ? It's already happened, it was always there. The happening is only a shift in perception, which i suspect has been present for a while but covered by words.

So it occurs to me on the way home

(grin)

This sounds like a story. Why would i say that ?

Because it presumes there is "someone" to "go" with it.

Love,

Anton

This sounds like a story. Why would i say that ?
Because it presumes there is "someone" to "go" with it.

Ha, i didn't think of that one.
It was because it was a logical deduction and not experiencing.

love

It was because it was a logical deduction and not experiencing.

Yes, and I missed that one, lol! Like yours better; more practical. What you say makes me question more about experience vs concept. As I indicated, there seems to be a process of clarification going on.

Pertinent to that, I just read Awakening Vs Liberation by Ed Muzika in the Articles section off the home page here. Wow. Is that ever important. It pointed to why there's this longing in me that manifests in so many ways that is sort of a pressure to give/find/share. It perfectly aligns with the idea that there is no flash--BANG thing that is ultimately useful other than as establishing a perspective from which to engage the stream of experience. The Stream doesn't stop flowing! As I said to Steve,* "It is an everlasting Unfoldment!" And part of that stream is what comes up from the suggestion of acquired attitudes and tendencies and how they are seen through now. It also speaks to your signature line that "Liberation starts with recognizing the illusion of an I." A kind of peace descended on me after reading it, and a feeling that whatever is going on is what's meant to be happening, and it felt like blame, striving, grieving, analyzing, all became less of a reaction or motivation for me. It is all kind of new, and hard to put into words. And you know me, with that hoity-toity language thing, lol! :)

Love,

Anton

*Steve is a blue sprout on here, a dear friend in Arizona, and is the one who brought this site to my attention. Boy, am I grateful!