Thread for Biggles

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jowate
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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:05 am

Hi S,
Each reminder makes the seeing clearer, gives me confidence, even reminder that DE and Awareness are same thing!


Great – just notice that ‘confidence’ is not a personal quality. It’s a way of saying that reality (without reifying that word) is completely ok with being reality, being what-is, whatever that ‘is’ is right now.
Look for lurking beliefs that hold you back here. Is there some tenacious holding? Is there a sense of something being protected?

Probably.. Unsure what... A protection of the habitual, the familiar, the safe maybe... Which amounts to the self I guess....


No. It amounts to a protecting impulse mentally labelled ‘the self’.
…still perhaps a fear that too much energy will be released in seeing, that it will be overwhelming, fear of madness... and various lack of confidence lurking beliefs...


You can presumably see already that these are just thoughts. When open awareness is present – or let’s say, when awareness is in its openness phase – isn’t it clear directly that there’s no self-entity here to be mad or not mad?

So when it’s in its ‘thinking’ phase (also labelled ‘distraction’, ‘fear’, ‘anxiety’ etc.) can it be seen that this is essentially just the same? Meaning, no-one ‘decided’ to become openness, no-one ‘decided’ to get involved in painful thinking.

These are just varying modes of awareness or, put another way, different movies appearing on the screen of awareness. The main distinction, relatively, is that one appears as ‘no problem’ or ‘perfect as it is’ and the other appears – or is mentally evaluated right away – as ‘PROBLEM!!!’ Yet both are arising inseparably in the undivided space of awareness.

But the thing to note is that in neither case is there an actor / agent. Would a real ‘me’ entity choose to go into such painful thoughts? Contraction arises just as self-lessly as Openness. As you know from the old saying, the ‘mad’ ones are those who still cling to the idea that there is a self-entity doing and viewing it all, when no such self-entity ever existed. As you say, it’s all just thought.
Okay. Ta. But we had this exchanges recently which I found quite helpful.... Or is this a slightly different thing?

T: Can you find any ‘line’ or distinction between a feeling and the awareness of that feeling?

S: There seems to be a distinction, a different flavour, between getting lost in sadness say, (the feeling rettrieved in memory) and being aware of the sadness as it presents itself....

T: There seems to be – but is there a distinction in direct experience? Where is the boundary? Is awareness ever not totally inseparably one with what’s arising? Really look.


Well, any further observations on this from direct experience would be interesting :)

T.x

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Biggles
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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:19 pm

Hi T,
T: Great – just notice that ‘confidence’ is not a personal quality.
T: No. It amounts to a protecting impulse mentally labelled ‘the self’.
Seems to sneak in, this imagined self, whenever it can.... There is a forgetting.... Maybe the "I" should be put in inverted commas much more.... At least mentally.. Kind of exhausting though...
You can presumably see already that these are just thoughts. When open awareness is present – or let’s say, when awareness is in its openness phase – isn’t it clear directly that there’s no self-entity here to be mad or not mad? So when it’s in its ‘thinking’ phase (also labelled ‘distraction’, ‘fear’, ‘anxiety’ etc.) can it be seen that this is essentially just the same?


It can be seen that "the thinking phase" is just the same sometimes.... Thoughts seem to be ephemeral, light, random and easy to let go of at times.. Other times, in the hurly burly, they are believed... It's like you been saying though... If it can be seen that nobody's thinking them.... If it's known there's nobody at home.. Well they slide off - like fried eggs off a good Teflon frying pan... :)
Contraction arises just as self-lessly as Openness
.

Useful phrase, thank you...
As you say, it’s all just thought.
Well thats a relief. Just babble babble. No need to believe much of it. Most of it. Almost all of it. Any of it?
Is awareness ever not totally inseparably one with what’s arising? Really look. Well, any further observations on this from direct experience would be interesting :)
Before the labels kick in - seamlessness. There must be seamlessness even with the labels - but labelling seems to cause a division....

ANd back to taking stand as awareness... Seems to be having a useful effect... I was meditating this morning and feeling astride between two perspectives.... Sense of all these different entities, different beings, different bodies and thoughts.... Sense of fragmentation and diversity... But a sense of one awareness behind/imbuing all this.... I know it's not quite linguistically right but - sense of the cliche that we are all one... One being almost.... Everything.. Yet astride two perspectives...

Thanks for continuing to do this.... Hope the snow's not been too inconvenient for youse all...

Sx

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jowate
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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:11 pm

Hi S,

Putting the imagined ‘I’ in inverted commas mentally –
‘Kind of exhausting though...’


Yes, there’s no need for ‘doing’ this. When awareness goes off for walkies with anxiety, fear or fantasies, notice that it always comes ‘back’. But did it actually go anywhere?

It could be useful to look more carefully at what is actually happening here. Is it true, in experience, that awareness ‘went away’ and ‘came back’? Is awareness ‘gone’ when fantasising, etc.? Isn’t it intimately present, as always, with a particular kind of object?

But when it takes in a more subtle / less ‘overwhelming’ object, there’s a sense of ‘coming back’ – ‘oh, I’m back in awareness again’. Look at this. Who / what is deciding that ‘a moment ago’ I was distracted / unaware, and now I’m undistracted / aware?
No need to believe much of it. Most of it. Almost all of it. Any of it?


Depends. ‘I need to turn right here to get to the station’ can be believed … relatively. None of it can be believed absolutely.
Before the labels kick in - seamlessness. There must be seamlessness even with the labels - but labelling seems to cause a division....


Going back to what I wrote above – seems to whom/what? Is there an experience of division, or a (subsequent) mental imputation of division?
But a sense of one awareness behind/imbuing all this.... I know it's not quite linguistically right but - sense of the cliche that we are all one... One being almost.... Everything.. Yet astride two perspectives...


You’re on to something there …

T.x

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Biggles
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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:38 pm

Hi T,
It could be useful to look more carefully at what is actually happening here. Is it true, in experience, that awareness ‘went away’ and ‘came back’? Is awareness ‘gone’ when fantasising, etc.? Isn’t it intimately present, as always, with a particular kind of object?
I'll carry on looking at this.... Difficult to notice because, say there is an assumption awareness was "gone" while fantasizing - difficult to retrieve or re-examine that moment... But it can be deduced from present moment that awareness is always intimately present... Direct experience can be returned to, thought can be seen to be arising in present moment in/as awareness and the reference to self or dividedness can also be seen as another arising in/as awareness...
Who / what is deciding that ‘a moment ago’ I was distracted / unaware, and now I’m undistracted / aware?
No controller or decision maker there... It's just a thought, a habitual "self" reference thought....
S: Before the labels kick in - seamlessness. There must be seamlessness even with the labels - but labelling seems to cause a division....

T:Going back to what I wrote above – seems to whom/what? Is there an experience of division, or a (subsequent) mental imputation of division?
The latter. All comes back to thought again and a belief in thought as reality... If awareness is taken as primary, if a stance is taken as awareness, then thoughts are seen as what they are - ephemeral arisings...
S: But a sense of one awareness behind/imbuing all this.... I know it's not quite linguistically right but - sense of the cliche that we are all one... One being almost.... Everything.. Yet astride two perspectives...
T:You’re on to something there …
How to proceed throughout the day?... Maybe just coming back to a couple of things at moment? A reminding that awareness is primary.... a standing as awareness.... seeing thought as ephemeral arisings, whether a "me" thought, a practical thought, a thought arguing division or whatever.... "I got lost there, lost awareness, I'm never going to get this" - seeing such a mentation as just a thought arising in or as awareness - a bubble...

And - sorry to be thick - but re. direct experience, awareness - animals, babies don't have a sense of "me" presumably - they experience an immediacy uncomplicated by concepts... How is that different from the awareness we're talking about... with DE/awareness - there is an experience unmediated by concepts or labels - but some kind of objectivity or seeing of that at same time? Both an absorption in and seeing of experience simultaneously... Maybe this last para. doesn't matter... Im pretty knackered and head feels full of fog... Previous para more important, getting somewhere... Viz. all thoughts are arising in awareness - are awareness... An "I" thought is made of the same stuff as a brick or a sunset... Awareness all there is, absolutely what is....

Okay doke,
S x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:50 am

Hi S,
I'll carry on looking at this.... Difficult to notice because, say there is an assumption awareness was "gone" while fantasizing - difficult to retrieve or re-examine that moment...


As you say – an assumption. So – is the assumption seen/known to be valid in direct right-now experience? Because that is the only place it’s ever going to be seen and seen-through. As you continue:
But it can be deduced from present moment that awareness is always intimately present... Direct experience can be returned to, thought can be seen to be arising in present moment in/as awareness and the reference to self or dividedness can also be seen as another arising in/as awareness...


If this is seen/known right now, what else needs to be ‘in place’? Thoughts – some thoughts, now and then – are saying that various other conditions need to be in place – especially in one way or another that there needs to be something different about ‘selfing’ or habit energies, especially the ‘caught up’ type ones. This is, in your words “just a thought, a habitual "self" reference thought”. And it’s known as such.
T:Going back to what I wrote above – seems to whom/what? Is there an experience of division, or a (subsequent) mental imputation of division?


The latter. All comes back to thought again and a belief in thought as reality... If awareness is taken as primary, if a stance is taken as awareness, then thoughts are seen as what they are - ephemeral arisings...


Great observation! So note: this is seen/known!
How to proceed throughout the day?... Maybe just coming back to a couple of things at moment? A reminding that awareness is primary.... a standing as awareness.... seeing thought as ephemeral arisings, whether a "me" thought, a practical thought, a thought arguing division or whatever.... "I got lost there, lost awareness, I'm never going to get this" - seeing such a mentation as just a thought arising in or as awareness - a bubble...


Yes, any of that is useful – keep coming back to looking/observing/ seeing this in immediate direct experience. Also noticing that ‘no doer of the deed is found’…
And - sorry to be thick - but re. direct experience, awareness - animals, babies don't have a sense of "me" presumably - they experience an immediacy uncomplicated by concepts... How is that different from the awareness we're talking about... with DE/awareness - there is an experience unmediated by concepts or labels - but some kind of objectivity or seeing of that at same time? Both an absorption in and seeing of experience simultaneously... Maybe this last para. doesn't matter... Im pretty knackered and head feels full of fog... Previous para more important, getting somewhere... Viz. all thoughts are arising in awareness - are awareness... An "I" thought is made of the same stuff as a brick or a sunset... Awareness all there is, absolutely what is....
It’s not different. Except that we’ve gone from ‘innocence’ to ‘experience’ and the apparent paradoxical question is how do we keep the experience (which is rather important and useful) – not that we have any option – and regain the innocence? Well, what we're doing here is how!

T.x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:13 pm

Hi T....
S: But it can be deduced from present moment that awareness is always intimately present... Direct experience can be returned to, thought can be seen to be arising in present moment in/as awareness and the reference to self or dividedness can also be seen as another arising in/as awareness...

T: If this is seen/known right now, what else needs to be ‘in place’? Thoughts – some thoughts, now and then – are saying that various other conditions need to be in place – especially in one way or another that there needs to be something different about ‘selfing’ or habit energies, especially the ‘caught up’ type ones. This is, in your words “just a thought, a habitual "self" reference thought”. And it’s known as such.
What else needs to be in place?.. Nothing... Fear and doubt arise at that... just arisings.... see response to this next bit....
T:Going back to what I wrote above – seems to whom/what? Is there an experience of division, or a (subsequent) mental imputation of division?
S;The latter. All comes back to thought again and a belief in thought as reality... If awareness is taken as primary, if a stance is taken as awareness, then thoughts are seen as what they are - ephemeral arisings...
T:Great observation! So note: this is seen/known!
And the reaction to that last line? - the usual suspects.... Doubt and habitual strong volitions - sexual fantasy and a harsh, critical voice particularly... But they're really beginning to be seen as just thoughts .... Thoughts which can seem to have a frowning seriousness and seem to be the weight of your average baked potato but are more like the coming and goings of a fragrance, a white mist... Seen more lightly, happily... Self seems to be running out of options :)

( I like the word "mentations" for some reason - less sticky than "thoughts"....)
Yes, any of that is useful – keep coming back to looking/observing/ seeing this in immediate direct experience. Also noticing that ‘no doer of the deed is found’…
So....
Coming back to immediate, direct experience and asking "Where is the self in this?
Standing as awareness and reflecting that body and thoughts are seen, they can't be the subject, in fact everything is seen.
Noticing when awareness/aliveness/presence is mistaken for "me".
Seeing doubts, thoughts, puzzlement, critical voices etc as mentations rising in/as awareness.
Looking and seeing that there is no doer.

S.x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:25 pm

Hi S,
... But they're really beginning to be seen as just thoughts .... Thoughts which can seem to have a frowning seriousness and seem to be the weight of your average baked potato but are more like the coming and goings of a fragrance, a white mist... Seen more lightly, happily... Self seems to be running out of options :)


Nice metaphors. Self has no options to run out of, given that it has the same ontological status as Santa Claus!

See these thoughts as ‘lordly thoughts’ i.e. emperor’s new clothes thoughts …
So....
Coming back to immediate, direct experience and asking "Where is the self in this?
Standing as awareness and reflecting that body and thoughts are seen, they can't be the subject, in fact everything is seen.
Noticing when awareness/aliveness/presence is mistaken for "me".
Seeing doubts, thoughts, puzzlement, critical voices etc as mentations rising in/as awareness.
Looking and seeing that there is no doer.


So – is it SEEN that there is no doer? No experiencer? Are those lordly thoughts believed any more? Are the doubting thoughts believed any more?

T.x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:39 pm

Hi T,
So – is it SEEN that there is no doer? No experiencer? Are those lordly thoughts believed any more? Are the doubting thoughts believed any more?
Came across this exchange from the site recently which gave me pause....

"I am starting to 'come and go' and keep sort of needing to remind myself (yes I know it sounds silly) that there is no one here."

Guide's respones: This frequently is experienced when the 'knowledge' that there is no 'me' is intellectual rather than experiential. When you see from direct experience that there is no self, it cannot be unseen.


It's seen intellectually certainly...

I frequently ask "Is there a me?" or "Where is the me?" But sometimes still a pointing to this body... But then, after a while, that can very often be deconstructed... E.g. right now typing.... Hands on keyboard...Pink of hands, black of keys... Why identify with pink and not black? Physical sensations, bum on chair.... Why identify with bum not chair?... Awareness takes in all.....

This feels more than intellectual. Then doubt arises. "Do you really see?" "Are you really claiming to see through the self?..." These are, as you put it, "lordly thoughts" arising in awareness.... They are losing their stickiness.... They are objects in awareness as bum, chair, hand, keyboard are objects.... (or more directly physical sensation and colour are objects)... If they're perceived , they can't be the perceiver... What "I" really am is awareness, awareness is mistaken for "me"....
So – is it SEEN that there is no doer? No experiencer? Are those lordly thoughts believed any more? Are the doubting thoughts believed any more?
Last couple of days, things have deepened... Feel as if it's seen... Expressed a bit tentatively, apologetically I know :) but still ... But what I wrote before - "Pink of hands, black of keys... Why identify with pink and not black? Physical sensations, bum on chair.... Why identify with bum not chair?... Awareness takes in all..... " seems a very potent exercise... As well as saying "That's a thought and it's seen in awareness" when a particular doubt or whatever comes up....

(By the way, the miserable, anxious stories, depressive stories which have been believed for decades... Even at their most miserable, there did seem to be a joyful subtext under there.... )

S x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:40 pm

Hi S,
It's seen intellectually certainly...


That was probably the case before you started … but I see below there is more than a suggestion that it goes further than that.
.... Why identify with bum not chair?...


Interesting question – is either experienced, as such?
This feels more than intellectual. Then doubt arises. "Do you really see?" "Are you really claiming to see through the self?..." These are, as you put it, "lordly thoughts" arising in awareness.... They are losing their stickiness.... They are objects in awareness as bum, chair, hand, keyboard are objects.... (or more directly physical sensation and colour are objects)... If they're perceived , they can't be the perceiver


Is there anything intellectual / conceptual about looking for ‘self’ in direct experience and not finding?

Yes. See directly and have confidence that all ‘lordly thoughts’ are complete impostors. As you say, they are experiences, not the ‘experiencer’. They are just as insubstantial as everything else. Momentary sensations.
... What "I" really am is awareness, awareness is mistaken for "me"....
So, is awareness ‘yours’; do you have your own awareness? Is it in any sense ‘personal’?
Last couple of days, things have deepened... Feel as if it's seen


Right! Hold it there … no qualifications!

Have you seen through the illusion of a separate self?

T.x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:58 pm

Hi T..
S: .... Why identify with bum not chair?...
T: Interesting question – is either experienced, as such?
No, there's just physical sensations.
Is there anything intellectual / conceptual about looking for ‘self’ in direct experience and not finding?
No, it's experiential.
So, is awareness ‘yours’; do you have your own awareness? Is it in any sense ‘personal’?
No, awareness is impersonal. Imbues everything. Yet it has a feeling of familiarity, closeness. Intimacy. Which is mistaken for "me".
S: Last couple of days, things have deepened... Feel as if it's seen
T: Right! Hold it there … no qualifications! Have you seen through the illusion of a separate self?
Last few days quite often there is an aliveness, a sense of nothingness, (but not a nothingy nothingness), no reference point or centre. Nobody feels at home. A kind of familiarity. Fear and anxiety came up very strongly yesterday but could see it as just feelings arising within this....

But seem to be operating on two levels... Quite often catching myself thinking things like "I catch myself thinking..." or "I really must do this or that..." Kind of knee jerk identification with "me" and "I".... And today a very uncomfortable feeling around criticism I received about teaching a class.. Pretty mild criticism but it seemed to throw me... So then doubt arises... Is it really seen? Sitting with all this, trying to see it as "lordly thoughts" again.... Aware that there is often a swerving away from trust in direct experience ... But it all threw me a little today so need to mention it... Can all this ride side by side with seeing through self?

Oh bum, bum and ballocks, but it feels closer than it's ever felt....

S x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:00 pm

Hi S,
But seem to be operating on two levels... Quite often catching myself thinking things like "I catch myself thinking..." or "I really must do this or that..." Kind of knee jerk identification with "me" and "I".... And today a very uncomfortable feeling around criticism I received about teaching a class.. Pretty mild criticism but it seemed to throw me... So then doubt arises... Is it really seen? Sitting with all this, trying to see it as "lordly thoughts" again.... Aware that there is often a swerving away from trust in direct experience ... But it all threw me a little today so need to mention it... Can all this ride side by side with seeing through self?


Is any of this anything other than conditioned (re)-actions? Is there an expectation that deeply ingrained habit-patterns will just ‘stop’ – or ought to stop – when the self-view is seen through? Or should have stopped if the self-view had been seen through?

Look at your expectations here – they are obscuring the clarity of seeing-knowing which is actually present. Some more subtle doubts/beliefs to see through – look at where the questions in my paragraph above are pointing and their essencelessness should be obvious.
Oh bum, bum and ballocks, but it feels closer than it's ever felt....


And so it is!

T.x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:12 am

Hi T,
Is any of this anything other than conditioned (re)-actions? Is there an expectation that deeply ingrained habit-patterns will just ‘stop’ – or ought to stop – when the self-view is seen through? Or should have stopped if the self-view had been seen through?
Yes, I think there is some subtle belief that deeply ingrained habits should stop.... Odd - or maybe not so odd - at moment they are being experienced with a real intensity... but kind of held safely ......

This morning woke up with a sense of loving presence. Nothingness, nobody at home. I reckon the illusion of self has been seen through. I go and meditate - thought comes up "But there's this body here, this separate body..." But that's a concept, a label... The experience is energy, physical sensations.... Where is the me in that?

There just seems to be a sweet awareness. And that's it.

Off to seaside :)

S x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:02 am

Hi S,

Hope you had a good time at the seaside!

So these perceptions come and go. 'Illusion of self is gone' ... (thinks) 'BUT!!!' ... Looks: no separate self found. So what is 'believed' here - the direct experience, given that direct experience is undeniable, or the thoughts, given that thoughts are unreliable, miasmic, contradictory ... ?

Is it a no-brainer?

T.x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby Biggles » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:00 am

Hi T
So these perceptions come and go. 'Illusion of self is gone' ... (thinks) 'BUT!!!' ... Looks: no separate self found. So what is 'believed' here - the direct experience, given that direct experience is undeniable, or the thoughts, given that thoughts are unreliable, miasmic, contradictory ... ?

Is it a no-brainer?
There is no brain.
There is faith in direct experience.
S x

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Re: Thread for Biggles

Postby jowate » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:21 am

Hi S,

Right enough! So I'm going to ask you to respond to the 'final questions' (which may or may not prove to be literally final, depending on whether other guides find other questions for me to ask).

Here we go:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Just answer as clearly and fully as you can.

T.x


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