Dance with me - A request for guidance

[John86]

Being pedantic I have to question if I could prove anything to anyone, even if I hit them on the head with it. I am to accept the evidence of what is sensed here and now as what is real. That's OK, I can go with that. So we have a couple or three other places to look in the physical realm: not here - everywhere not directly sensed; and not now - past and future; there is something else that might be worth considering: in a sense nothing is immediately sensed - the obvious example being stars - when we look at them we are seeing the star as it was a long time ago. But I think you're asking for proof that only appeals directly to your senses eg stuff that happens here and now. An analogy would be to imagine we were both in a soundproof box and you asked me to try and directly sense if there was anything outside that box.

So we use observation (thought) of what is directly sensed here and now to build a model of the world (another thought). This model is so robust and useful that to all effects and purposes we usually consider it to BE reality. We forget it is only a model.

Now, 'find what the thought "self" is pointing to' - yes, I do feel a presence, and it bothers me that I cannot figure out, or 'see' , what that is, I'm only getting a small time frame to notice before those pesky thoughts grab my attention. I feel your reference to the notice-er is a direct pointer to were we want to go... but alas it's not happening.

I like your comparison of thoughts to waves.

mmmm hmmmm...... :)

[John86]

looking again at what is outside now I get a feeling of space and freedom - 'un-bound' rather than the 'bound' of now... but that is not answering your question - what is real outside now????

[otterrivers]

you're definitely onto it. yeah we cant say senses are real... how could we prove that. we can only know that we feel something.

I didn't really want an answer to "what is real outside of now". your "I get a feeling of space and freedom" is the answer I was looking for. ;)

so when you are in this space of wonder, how are you 'bound' now?

[John86]

Curious! Became aware of a feeling of light last night, which could be described as spaciousness. Woke up this morning and it is still there.

Reading your post I thought Otter is jumping to conclusions assuming I can enter the space when I'd just barely perceived it. Not so sure now!

Busy day today. Will get back as soon as I can

[otterrivers]

yep! don't worry if this spacious state isn't permanent. states (clarity, feeling enlightened, feeling one-ness...) come and go. what always remains? no matter what movie is projected on the screen, what is always there? :)

[John86]

Re: <so when you are in this space of wonder, how are you 'bound' now?>

First reaction: There is no 'bound'
Then: I'm bound by some attachment to this mind
Then: This is a feeling I'm getting in my mind.

Now, as usual, I'll need some time to hmmmm mmmmm on your last question... which looks like a re-phrasing of the one I've just attempted to answer... hmmmm mmmmm.. :)

[John86]

<what always remains? no matter what movie is projected on the screen, what is always there?>

The thinking mind says there are 3 elements - the projector, the screen, and the viewer. Aha! The Viewer! Will try to 'feel' the viewer.

[otterrivers]

let me know what you find.
don't take the metaphor too seriously though.
is there a viewer? is the viewing separate from the viewed? find the point where the sense becomes sensed... seeing happens, but what sees?
Find the point of separation between this metaphorical "projector:screen:viewer". if these are all experienced, what experiences them? it's like i'm asking "what's at the center of a doughnut?" lol. obviously there is some presence being now. but doesn't it seem that you can only find what it is not? I am actually asking. what do you see? actually look without jumping to a conclusion or trying to say the right answer. stay in this space of inquiry. answers arise, and we will question those answers too. are we looking for "something"? is there anything to find? Sorry to speak so disjointedly and cryptically. if you don't focus too hard on the words, but just follow their essence to what they point to, confusion can be minimized.

[John86]

The 'spaciouness' slipped away saturday, been my old self ever since.

Just read some of your transcriptions with Conti. Most reassuring.

<What's at the centre of a doughnut? > The yummy bit! Well English doughnuts have jam in the middle...

Yes, I find no separation between projector:screen:viewer, they're all one. What a powerful pointer, right to the now.
Trying to relate this to <what is real outside now?> and becoming lost.

Oh! spaciouness is returning.

Each time I 'look' requires effort - have to swim through the weeds of thoughts/models. Not always successful.

<doesn't it seem that you can only find what it is not?><are we looking for "something"? is there anything to find? >
Realised what you meant for an instant, and briefly felt 'relief'. -

Yes we are looking for something, but not "something" We're looking for something that isn't there, something that is not a thought etc.

must go now, hope to do more later

[John86]

OK, will try again! <if these are all experienced, what experiences them? > Sometimes I see a fire - but this is just a thought - so its not that. Sometimes, for an instant it feels like something is going to overwhelm me, a panic then the sensation has gone.

All I can do is throw you some of my reactions and hope you'll find something of use. I feel I do make progress, but it takes time....

[otterrivers]

I can't write more until tonight but I wanted to say, stay with the feeling of relief you find. explore it. trying to explain it or define it is counter productive. liberation is that relief. the rest of this can go to hell right? that relief is what all these words point to but can't say.

[John86]

Yeah it can go to hell! LOL Otter. Feel like I've been walked up the gangplank - resistance/don't know how to jump off. Grunt... must.. make more ... ugh... effort...

I'll try to relax more and revisit that relief...

[John86]

Went for a long walk and then 30 mins youtube-Adyashanti . Feel so much more relaxed.
As I was walking these thoughts surfaced: No need to look. I am already experiencing what it is I'm looking for, seeing, feeling, touching,thinking, being... yet I'm not getting it! At least I don't think I am....

[otterrivers]

sounds like you're getting it until you think about it. trying to analyze it like trying to catch the wind in a box... even if you can do it, it isn't wind anymore. thoughts happen. the level of importance you give them is the level to which they can give you trouble. it's just mind weather. :)
it's not about effort. do you have to try to let go? if you see something a new way, does it take effort to see? like do you have to work hard to see the computer in front of you? if I asked if you see a dancing green alien on your keyboard, you could just look and see it isn't there. what about "self" what do you see? what sees it?

[John86]

Sorry, I think that was a misleading post. I meant to say that everyday experience (with self) is 'naked'/immediate experience, and is just the same as experience without self, the difference being that there is more emphasis on self - and that's fine. The person with self has 'it' already. Perhaps thats not right or perhaps you understood what I was attempting to say....

What you say about the weather is so true.

Whatever it is I'm feeling ( which is normal everyday life, with occasional periods of pleasant spaciousness) takes absolutely no effort. Whatever it was I was feeling before required no conscious effort either. So has anything happened? Inquiry on self is required. It's somewhere I've avoided looking the past few days.. Yes there does seem to be an empty space where self used to hang out. I still react in the old way to all the old irritations. Yes, they're seen not as 'my' reactions, but just reactions.
'Now' is experienced. Hmmmm that feels like 'my' experience. <what sees it> It's just a feeling