gattaca

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

I did go for a walk in a park yesterday. In looking at the people I had the impression that there were no individuals within the bodies and that this display was automatic, even mechanical in a way, but not cold. "Impersonal" but all-inclusive and affectionate.

Good, yes now ask yourself, when others see you, what do they see? Who do they create? Take this further by yourself, you’re starting to see so take a lead from this question and ask one or two further questions of your own then if you like share the questions and the answers.

I feel like I have a foot in two worlds. At once beyond all that appears, yet still hovering somewhere in a subtle identification. I can see this as a thought but there is still something lingering, subtle. I do feel some boundary has been crossed. The mind wants to distract me with announcements "What else is there?!". But still there is a clear sense that there is more work to do. Jed McKenna's "further..." is still echoing.

‘more work to do’, or is this just another arising asking you for attention. Invite it in, sit it down and look at it. How does it fare under your gaze? Is it real? Or is it a habit of the mind to want to be back into the narrative, into the doing world?

When we finally set it all down, only then do we fully realise all that we've been dragging along into each moment, all of the becoming we create and work to maintain. It’s a habit we form so it’s important that we check to see what’s behind this subtle feeling or that gentle assumption. Anything there? Any ‘me’? Anyone home? No? Just another arising then…

Really this path stops when we learn to stop. When we see it with a child's eyes again and just let go in the moment and don’t try to do or be anything, or make anything, or conceptualise anything, but just openly, honestly, innocently be.

It’s really that simple. So just be empty in the park yourself. Empty on the way there, empty on the way back. Can you let go enough to just let go in the moment without having to control it?

Let me know how you get on.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[gattaca]

‘more work to do’, or is this just another arising asking you for attention. Invite it in, sit it down and look at it. How does it fare under your gaze? Is it real? Or is it a habit of the mind to want to be back into the narrative, into the doing world?

There appears a momentum of these patterns... patterns continuing to appear against this backdrop of "unperturbability" that seems to be taking residence more and more as the ground of experience. Even in moments of frustration and anxiety (usually at work) there is a sense of it being waves on the surface, unable to stir the depths.

But what of these patterns that remain? What thoughts, feelings, or other subtle impressions seek to draw me into engagement with them?

Again tears... A futility. The thoughts and words are quick and fleeting. There is a lack of motivation to engage them at the level required to articulate them enough to write them down... Making attempts to report on them a bit frustrating. Feelings... Grieving, fear, futility, hopelessness... Frustration, a desire to severe this connection to appearance... A subtle groping for the cliffs edge so I can throw myself off. Then quiet. Then a realization the quiet had an effortful quality... Not so quiet... Judgement of the effort.

I don't know if the stream of consciousness is helpful but as I mentioned I'm having a harder time articulating.

There has been a deep resonance with your past couple of posts. I want to consider them throughout the day, yet I am aware of a resistance to doing so also. I feel we are moving from the question/answer format which is pushing the inquiry to a different level... Requiring more from a level that is beyond the mind... Uncomfortable... Confusing... Frustrating... Like a first yoga class with undeveloped balance and foreign, undeveloped muscles.

Also there is a feeling in your last posts of a stark, naked invitation to take this leap of faith into letting go of all control/agenda, and a recognition, a deep "yes, this is it. The situation is just as described." But then a turning around... Deliberating... Loitering at the edge... A feeling of shame. "It's here you coward! Jump!"

But then the sentence ends, the paragraph ends, the story evaporates. What is left? Fingers typing, experiencing... A fullness/emptiness.

Thank you Andrew.

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

'frustration and anxiety (usually at work)'

Watch these things as they arise. Watch the movement of wanting things to be other than they are. When this arises try letting it go immediately. Be very present, very aware through this. What happens to these thoughts when you do?

But what of these patterns that remain? What thoughts, feelings, or other subtle impressions seek to draw me into engagement with them?

A good reflection. Patterns can persist, thoughts can arise and continue to do so. Don’t let thoughts become a problem for you. We’re not trying to escape thought or feeling, it’s a seeing, a seeing of their emptiness. Where is the origin of thought? Is there a ‘me’? Does there need to be a ‘me’? Is the origin of a thought any different from a muscle reflex?

Look at the arising of thought, track them back. You’ll often notice something you’ve seen has set in motion a thought train. So there’s sense, the recognition of sense, a thought, a feeling. Are these anything more than processes? Is there anything behind them?

There has been a deep resonance with your past couple of posts. I want to consider them throughout the day, yet I am aware of a resistance to doing so also. I feel we are moving from the question/answer format which is pushing the inquiry to a different level... Requiring more from a level that is beyond the mind... Uncomfortable... Confusing... Frustrating... Like a first yoga class with undeveloped balance and foreign, undeveloped muscles.

Keep going back to awareness – it’s a letting go, a seeing. If it’s filled with the drama of imagined loss or treasure to be gained, these are just more stories arising. Not true, just stories.

What’s true can’t be any different from what’s around you, it’s just all as it is. How can it not be?

But then the sentence ends, the paragraph ends, the story evaporates. What is left? Fingers typing, experiencing... A fullness/emptiness.

Very good, very close. So look at these fingers. Whose fingers?

Move them. Who is moving them? Watch them move. Who is watching?

Good luck,

Andrew

[gattaca]

Hi Andrew,

I'm sitting in a Starbucks near my house. It's about 8:45pm. I came here over an hour ago to people watch, and to write to you. Parks aren't too good for people watching at night. :)

There was more crying tonight before I came. There wasn't a grieving quality to it this time. It was more of a feeling of being overwhelmed by the enormity... the absoluteness of the implications of seeing this.

Your posts have been resonating strongly. You may consider them gentle pointers but they stir something deeper that recognizes this simple truth and pits it against what remains of these patterns of beliefs.

Since we've been talking (and perhaps before) there has been this oscillation between insight and identification... but seemingly trending toward a more and more "unknown" place.

This "state" is not anything that could have been hinted at. The most sublime words of a hundred realized masters could do nothing to foreshadow this place I see from now. Through the lens of the mind seeking to know this truth it can only appear as mystical, holy, ecstatic, beautiful. But from here it is not any of those. It seems natural, even ordinary when considered on it's own terms. Simply a coming to rest. With the person there is always something at stake. Some separation is imagined as real and a person is born, intent to achieve relief by "inward" or "outward' means. But there is neither inward nor outward as separation never really happened... a seeking to address an imagined problem... how to either get rid of or get the most juice out of that apple you mentioned.

Yes, it is like a dream. All is happening to no consequence. The "people" I see are of the same dreamstuff as everything else... as inanimate as the furniture in terms of identity, but stunningly alive as Being (as is the furniture!). Just like what we could call a conventional dream, "I" IS the dream. The consciousness from which the dream arises is simultaneously the experiencer, experienced, and experiencing. The "I" does not observe. There is no observer. All is seamless. No "now" or "later", "here" or "there", "this" or "that", "me" or "not me" to be taken as real. Miraculous and mysterious yet intimate and immediately recognized as natural... just "Oh yeah." No fireworks, no past lives appearing before me, no kundalini coursing through the body, (of what consequence could any of these be?).

Thoughts dance in and out... "What will this be like tomorrow?" "What is happening here?" "Will this disappear without my attention?". But there is not a relationship there. What can thoughts run against here? There is nothing that is not of their same stuff... no place or possibility of interface between something called "thought" and something separate that could be jarred, moved, or otherwise affected.

Lo! This torturous journey never happened!

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

There was more crying tonight before I came. There wasn't a grieving quality to it this time. It was more of a feeling of being overwhelmed by the enormity... the absoluteness of the implications of seeing this

Well, I shed a few tears reading this and laughed too, but that’s not uncommon for me any day – not very British of course but there you go :-)

'Absoluteness' yes, with seeing everything changes and yet… nothing changes.

Your posts have been resonating strongly. You may consider them gentle pointers but they stir something deeper that recognizes this simple truth and pits it against what remains of these patterns of beliefs.

Yes, just keep looking, as patterns arise, just see them for what they are.

Since we've been talking (and perhaps before) there has been this oscillation between insight and identification... but seemingly trending toward a more and more "unknown" place.

Good, the need to always know is just part of wanting to 'control' - part of the illusion. But when you see, just see clearly, you see how it is. For example, no one needs to ‘know’ the sky is blue, you can just look and see, experience it in the moment, there’s no need for ‘knowing’, it is directly experienced.

This "state" is not anything that could have been hinted at. The most sublime words of a hundred realized masters could do nothing to foreshadow this place I see from now. Through the lens of the mind seeking to know this truth it can only appear as mystical, holy, ecstatic, beautiful. But from here it is not any of those. It seems natural, even ordinary when considered on it's own terms. Simply a coming to rest. With the person there is always something at stake. Some separation is imagined as real and a person is born, intent to achieve relief by "inward" or "outward' means. But there is neither inward nor outward as separation never really happened... a seeking to address an imagined problem... how to either get rid of or get the most juice out of that apple you mentioned.

Excellent. Yes, a coming to rest. All those words in books, thoughts, assumptions, expectations to address ‘an imagined problem’, very well put. I heard once that a young Buddhist novice asked an Ajahn who was held to be enlightened how the world looked through his eyes. ‘It looks ordinary’ he replied.

Yes, it is like a dream. All is happening to no consequence.

Good. And happening to whom?

The "people" I see are of the same dreamstuff as everything else... as inanimate as the furniture in terms of identity, but stunningly alive as Being (as is the furniture!).

Yes. So with awareness now, when you look around at other ‘things’ is there still a sense of separation happening?

Just like what we could call a conventional dream, "I" IS the dream. The consciousness from which the dream arises is simultaneously the experiencer, experienced, and experiencing. The "I" does not observe. There is no observer. All is seamless. No "now" or "later", "here" or "there", "this" or "that", "me" or "not me" to be taken as real. Miraculous and mysterious yet intimate and immediately recognized as natural... just "Oh yeah.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

No fireworks, no past lives appearing before me, no kundalini coursing through the body, (of what consequence could any of these be?).

Yes, lol, and try not to feel cheated, there’s no new inpouring of knowledge and no earthquakes (well, maybe where you are…).

Thoughts dance in and out... "What will this be like tomorrow?" "What is happening here?" "Will this disappear without my attention?". But there is not a relationship there. What can thoughts run against here? There is nothing that is not of their same stuff... no place or possibility of interface between something called "thought" and something separate that could be jarred, moved, or otherwise affected.

Lo! This torturous journey never happened!

Beautiful. Yes, now you see why we guide. You can’t teach it because there’s nothing to learn! Only see, see how it is.

So… do not adjust your set. Thoughts will dance around quite a bit I expect for a few days, that’s normal. Just go with it, let it arise, let it settle and just be, without any expectations of what might or will be.

There are one or two small questions above and let me know how today goes for you, I’d really like to hear more. If you’re happy for me to do so, there are some questions to ask to confirm your seeing that I’ll then share with the other guides.

Look forward to your next post.

Take care,

Andrew

[gattaca]

Hi Andrew,

And happening to whom?

Of course to no one! There is no identity to be found. No independent entity is required, appears, or could have means of appearing. A dozen kangaroos would instantly appear in my bedroom long before I can imagine an I appearing. All happens as it always has, for no one.

So with awareness now, when you look around at other ‘things’ is there still a sense of separation happening?

Somewhat surprisingly, no. It seems there is no longer any binding quality to the appearance. Separation arose with the imagining of identity. Once that notion was seen through, the notion of separation could no longer stand... like kicking out one of two things leaning against one another... they need each other to stand and one falls as the other falls.

Thoughts arise and fall, even the same thoughts as before, but they have no owner to care for them so they fall almost as quickly as they arise. An image comes to mind of a pack of dogs swarmed around a bowl of food. Once the food is gone they still wander around poking their noses into the food bowl but just as quickly move on looking for sustenance elsewhere. Similarly there is no belief left in the notions of identification that may come knocking... no more food for the dogs, so they immediately wander off back into the ether.

I'll convey more of what I notice this weekend. And yes, of course I'd be happy to answer the other questions.

Thank you Andrew.

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

Of course to no one! There is no identity to be found. No independent entity is required, appears, or could have means of appearing. A dozen kangaroos would instantly appear in my bedroom long before I can imagine an I appearing. All happens as it always has, for no one.

Well, that couldn't be clearer and lol, some lovely imagery going on here :-)

Somewhat surprisingly, no. It seems there is no longer any binding quality to the appearance. Separation arose with the imagining of identity. Once that notion was seen through, the notion of separation could no longer stand... like kicking out one of two things leaning against one another... they need each other to stand and one falls as the other falls.

Thoughts arise and fall, even the same thoughts as before, but they have no owner to care for them so they fall almost as quickly as they arise. An image comes to mind of a pack of dogs swarmed around a bowl of food. Once the food is gone they still wander around poking their noses into the food bowl but just as quickly move on looking for sustenance elsewhere. Similarly there is no belief left in the notions of identification that may come knocking... no more food for the dogs, so they immediately wander off back into the ether.

Good. Perfect. And I would suggest just keep going with it as you have been. For all of us small stories will arise, thoughts come up, but they are what they are - with no identification, they have no power they just arise, like a dog at an empty food bowl, exactly!

So happy for you Gattaca, I really am! Okay, so here come the questions. You might find some repetition here as they're a standard set of questions everyone gets, but just as you have done answer from what you see, what you experience. There's no right or wrong, everyone expresses things differently and so sometimes I or another guide might as for clarification or might ask one or two more things. But just enjoy sharing what you see and what you've found:

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Can there ever be?

2) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?

3) in Experience, is there an experiencer? Is it the body that experiences or is the body simply an experience?

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

5) How does it FEEL to See? describe in detail.

6) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it?

7) What was the last bit that pushed you over or made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?

8) Now that you see that 'you', the first person character at the core of life, isn't, what do you
see when you see 'others'? Explain in your own words from your direct experience.

Look forward to getting your responses.

Take care,

Andrew

[gattaca]

Hi Andrew,

I woke up this morning wanting to get out of town (not like me at all)... so I decided to head here for the weekend...

http://vimeo.com/58045466

What better place to reflect on these questions? I'll be taking my iPad and posting from there. I suspect it will be easier for your review process if I answer them all at once(?) so it may be Sunday before I get them all answered and posted.

With heart-swelling gratitude,
gattaca

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

That looks beautiful, I hope you have a great time. You can answer the questions a few at a time or all at once, people do it both ways so whatever suits.

Each of us earns this gift for ourselves, all I did was point :-)

Don't know if you plan on doing any reading this weekend but now you may find the writings of some teachers look different than before. It makes a lot more sense now you see what they see... Anyway, have a great weekend and I look forward to your post(s).

Take care,

Andrew

[gattaca]

Hi Andrew,

I'm surprised to be feeling a bit of a contraction. The path here must have been quite gradual as I'm having trouble identifying the "hook". It's not "full on identification", just a sort of subtle confusion, ambiguity. If the "seeing" was as a sharp picture there seems a slight maladjustment of focus here now. The primary difference I notice is the diminished quality of effortlessness. Instead of moving in emptiness there appears a slightly increased density, like moving through air, or heavy air. Moving through air might not sound like any resistance at all, but of course when compared to emptiness it's a noticeable difference.

I'm trying not to submit to discouragement or the grasping that arises ("How will I ever be able to trust its really over if it always comes and goes?" "How do I get it back?") but instead see the mechanism of belief in separation that must be at the root. Of course I see the fallacies in these notions... "I", "it", etc. yet that ease of being appears clouded.

Any suggestions you have would be most welcome as usual!

Thank you Andrew

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

I'm surprised to be feeling a bit of a contraction. The path here must have been quite gradual as I'm having trouble identifying the "hook". It's not "full on identification", just a sort of subtle confusion, ambiguity. If the "seeing" was as a sharp picture there seems a slight maladjustment of focus here now. The primary difference I notice is the diminished quality of effortlessness. Instead of moving in emptiness there appears a slightly increased density, like moving through air, or heavy air. Moving through air might not sound like any resistance at all, but of course when compared to emptiness it's a noticeable difference.

I'm trying not to submit to discouragement or the grasping that arises ("How will I ever be able to trust its really over if it always comes and goes?" "How do I get it back?") but instead see the mechanism of belief in separation that must be at the root. Of course I see the fallacies in these notions... "I", "it", etc. yet that ease of being appears clouded.

Any suggestions you have would be most welcome as usual!

When awakeing happened to me it happened completely unexpectedly. I hadn't found this forum then so had no access to the experiences of others to which to compare it. I had a lot of confusion!

We have patterns of thought and habits built up over a lifetime. Those don't all drop away just because the illusion of 'self' is realised. They have a certain momentum. It's a bit like, if a planet was shattered but all of the 'stuff' that made it up was still floating around in the same part of space. The illusion has been shattered, but all of the 'bits' that made it up, our thoughts, feelings, patterns, etc. are still there, just not believed in as a joined up whole, if that makes sense.

So my advice would be to again watch your expectations. For me, when the illusion had been seen through it wasn't really an end and it wasn't a beginning but it was a different part of the journey, and we have to just enjoy it as such. That's why I said everything changes and nothing changes.

If resistance comes up, invite it in, sit it down and look at it, same with contractions, doubts, highs, lows. We breathe in, we breathe out, life goes on and what is to be resisted? So resist nothing.

Take care,

Andrew

[gattaca]

Yes, the shattered planet image is helpful... :)

I'm at Monterey Bay Aquarium. Amazing creatures here. But nothing is more amazing than that they appear at all. Despite the cool exhibits I find myself camped on a bench in a through-way watching the people move past in all directions... Just as they observe the sea life in the enormous enclosures here!

They marvel at these creatures, at the raw movement of nature, perhaps attracted by the lack of identity in them... The fact that they move effortlessly without that burden. They don't know they are one with the same nature that moves the fish.

Forgive the poetic lapse... :)

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

That sounds great and nothing wrong with poetry, I wish I had more facility with it, it might make expressing myself easier at times.

I suggest to be aware, as perhaps you will have seen, of the tendency of thoughts to try and arise and 'take hold of' or 'own' experience. The pocket calculator of our thinking mind is of very limited use and no good at all in trying to figure out what we know from direct experience, so spend as much time as you can with just being and don't try to 'make sense' of what that is.

Take care,

Andrew

[gattaca]

Hi Andrew,

I have been working through the questions and while I feel my responses are lucid, come from a place of recognition, and might "pass" there is a quality of effort to them that strikes an insincere note... as if a searching for a good answer in the mind vs. expressing from a place of direct experience.

We have patterns of thought and habits built up over a lifetime. Those don't all drop away just because the illusion of 'self' is realised. They have a certain momentum.

Yes, there is a feeling that I am still taking things onboard albeit it in subtle way I'm not seeing.

I suggest to be aware, as perhaps you will have seen, of the tendency of thoughts to try and arise and 'take hold of' or 'own' experience.

Yes, I sense this is happening.

So my advice would be again to watch your expectations.

Yes, at present I am aware of the expectation that identification with the "I", even subtly, should no longer occur once it is seen through. I certainly can't say that I'm identified with the "I", but to use the dog/food-bowl analogy it seems the dogs have a strong scent of something within the bowl and are aggressively pushing their noses in despite their not being any food there. My expectation is that (as was the experience before) they would poke their nose in and quickly depart... and may even progressively come back less and less. Could you speak more to your experience with this and/or if this was not your experience what you think may be accounting for this?

I will of course follow the recommendations you have already given. Also, if you'd prefer I can respond to the questions but I'd rather get some clarity on this subtle confusion first.

Thank you Andrew.

[Andrew White]

Hi Gattaca,

as if a searching for a good answer in the mind vs. expressing from a place of direct experience.

Well that's very honest of you. Yes, only answer from direct experience, from what is seen and what arises in awareness.

Yes, there is a feeling that I am still taking things onboard albeit it in subtle way I'm not seeing.

So just watch thoughts as they arise. We don't try to escape them just see them for what they are, empty of 'self'.

Yes, I sense this is happening.

Again, the process is simply to watch. Then it is seen as the illusion is seen.

Yes, at present I am aware of the expectation that identification with the "I", even subtly, should no longer occur once it is seen through

Don't focus on 'should' only on what is. There is no should or shouldn't.

Remember, the focus of our work here is not to escape the 'I'. There is no 'I' to escape. It's about seeing, directly experiencing what is. So if there a thought that arises, let it arise. What is it? Just a thought. Is it believed in? Why should it be?

Thoughts arise and pass away, you see this for yourself. Feelings arise and pass away and this continues, like waves on a sea, it's just a process we observe. But is there an 'I' behind it? Well look and try and find one. You can always look. I can look now - there isn't one.

I've had a feeling for two days that might be something like depression. In direct awareness this happens, I don't judge it, I don't try and cling to it, I don't try and get rid of it. Why? Because it's just an arising. Things change 'outside' and they change 'inside' and we know of course there's no outside or inside, so we just see change.

To try and stop it is like King Canute holding back the sea. It's not necessary, but it's also not the point of our work. We look to see, is there an 'I' in this? Then it's just the way it is. So can it be judged to be good or bad? To be this way or that way?

So what is expected is what is expected. Is it real? It might be right, it might be wrong. It's still just a thought and that's all it can ever be.

Best wishes,

Andrew