I would like to speak with a guide.

[Paulo]

Fantastic Dave! After such an intense few weeks it’s time to take a breath and see where you’re at.

There is no separate entity behind the word ‘me’.

How do you respond to the above statement from your current standpoint?

This is your chance to let it all out – have a good rant, write long and loud and in as much detail as you can. Share what you have found over the past two weeks - but ONLY your own experience!

I'm definitely looking forward to your reply on this one! - Keep well, Paulo :-)

Perfect! We can only experience what local experience experiences. We cannot ever know what the local experience we label a bird experiences as it eats suet.
Will YOU please amplify on that? The absence of 'me' is a lot easier to deal with as local experience as long as you and others can be explained as the same phenomena at a different locus points.

Not sure if that was a question for me in there. For now we will focus on your experience and progress. Once you have stepped through the gate we can look at that point more closely if you wish.

[dkhaliel]

There is no separate entity behind the word ‘me’.

How do you respond to the above statement from your current standpoint?

This is your chance to let it all out – have a good rant, write long and loud and in as much detail as you can. Share what you have found over the past two weeks - but ONLY your own experience!

First of all, I'm going to use the terms 'I' and 'me' up in here (with the stipulation that they have the meanings we have discussed) simply because it facilitates communication.
To me rant means animated impassioned fussing. But I feel no need to rant. Life is about the same as it always was. Experience is about the same as it always was. Just no 'me' to get in the way or to try to own them.
There is one thing I would like to get off my chest though. The more I read 'Gateless Gatecrashers' the more I feel that many of the philosophical retreats and organizations your students suffer through do far more harm than good. The capitalized Indian words,the catch phrases, the supposedly pithy but obscure and vague Japanese explanations and the endless hours and weeks of meditation seem to lead people farther away from what in the end is ultimately simple. They seem, as I experience their stories, to come out the same door they went in but more confused than ever. Their heads filled with mush and jargon, these seekers seem, from my reading, to need total deprogramming bordering on intervention before you can start teaching.
The thought occurs, 'why are there people out there who try to make it so hard if they really understand the truth'?
As for me more directly I feel myself at one with creation but not all the time. By that I mean that I often find myself caught up in the thought-world rather than being the experiencer of the thought. But then I experience this happening and return to simple awareness awareing with all just happening on its own, neither needing a me or being owned by a me. A sort of oscillation effect that I hope with time and practice will become as permanent as me was. But I have been me for so long and old habits die hard.

Something that I must explore further is the good vs evil duality. When one takes the 'me' out of the consideration, many of the old rules seem to drop away. I am tending to think more in terms of helpful and not-helpful or harmonious and non-harmonious now.

[Paulo]

First of all, I'm going to use the terms 'I' and 'me' up in here (with the stipulation that they have the meanings we have discussed) simply because it facilitates communication.

That’s absolutely fine, it gets a little awkward otherwise.

To me rant means animated impassioned fussing. But I feel no need to rant. Life is about the same as it always was. Experience is about the same as it always was. Just no 'me' to get in the way or to try to own them.

Very nice, I like it.

There is one thing I would like to get off my chest though. The more I read 'Gateless Gatecrashers' the more I feel that many of the philosophical retreats and organizations your students suffer through do far more harm than good. The capitalized Indian words,the catch phrases, the supposedly pithy but obscure and vague Japanese explanations and the endless hours and weeks of meditation seem to lead people farther away from what in the end is ultimately simple. They seem, as I experience their stories, to come out the same door they went in but more confused than ever. Their heads filled with mush and jargon, these seekers seem, from my reading, to need total deprogramming bordering on intervention before you can start teaching.

No teacher or students here, just a bunch of people having a dialogue with a bunch of other people. But I certainly take your point, lots of side roads and dead ends on the path from here to here.

As for me more directly I feel myself at one with creation but not all the time. By that I mean that I often find myself caught up in the thought-world rather than being the experiencer of the thought. But then I experience this happening and return to simple awareness awareing with all just happening on its own, neither needing a me or being owned by a me. A sort of oscillation effect that I hope with time and practice will become as permanent as me was. But I have been me for so long and old habits die hard.

This oscillation is perfectly normal and you may find it settles all by itself after some time. You’re absolutely right in your observation that being ‘me’ is just a habit.

Something that I must explore further is the good vs evil duality. When one takes the 'me' out of the consideration, many of the old rules seem to drop away. I am tending to think more in terms of helpful and not-helpful or harmonious and non-harmonious now.

You may find these dualities, like the self, are all a creation of the mind and just as illusory. I think it’s great you’re considering these questions though, and you will come to a greater understanding of them in time. Here, now, we are looking at the illusion of there being a self operating separately from everything else. That is all.

I feel you are ready for the next step in this process Dave, where you will be asked a series of questions. There are two sets of questions and they will assist us in determining where you are in the process. They are also very useful in helping you to deepen and stabilise what you have experienced so far.

I wanted to check with you first if you feel you’re ready for these questions, or if there are any doubts remaining about the illusion of a separate self?

Wishin you well, Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

No teacher or students here, just a bunch of people having a dialogue with a bunch of other people

Yes, that is what I mean. Not a bunch of jargon and rituals. Just straight to the point, to the heart of it.
Had a disturbing dream the other nite. One of my old, (bad boy type) friends was trying to kill me. Instead, in defending myself I (surprisingly to myself) killed him.
Tried to call the police but had a long, hard time getting through. Neither my friends nor my wife could accept or understand my explanation of the incident. In fact, they all began behaving rather bizarrely and I could not reason with them. Then I woke up.

I guess I am ready for the questions.

[Paulo]

Then I woke up.

LOL, that sounded like the punchline to a joke !!!

Here are the first group of questions Dave - as always, answer only from your own experience, honestly, and in as much detail as you can. Take some time over these if you wish and share when you're ready -


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


Best wishes, Paulo.

[dkhaliel]

Here are the first group of questions Dave - as always, answer only from your own experience, honestly, and in as much detail as you can. Take some time over these if you wish and share when you're ready -

OK. But there are a few days of thought & response required here. You may not hear from me for a bit.

[Paulo]

OK. But there are a few days of thought & response required here. You may not hear from me for a bit.

Absolutely fine Dave, take all the time you wish :-)

I'm going to give you the second set as well, so you can consider those also -

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?




6) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

7) Do you have anything to add about this investigation?



If you need clarification on any of the questions just let me know.

Be well, Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

If you don't mind I would like to do these one at a time rather than in groups of three. Takes longer, but is easier for me.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

No me at all, anywhere. Never was. The 'me', the separation is a mindset, a coherent group of thoughts passed on to us by our parents and teachers. It is a way of regulating the behavior of individuals in the way that the local group (society) wishes.
There is 'no-thing', or 'being,' or experience but the more one tries to describe what is, the further one seems to get from it. Into this AMness or ISness or experienceness everything arises. The best I can describ it is that I am experience experiencing everything from a local point of view.

But a key thing about this experiencing, this lifeing is that nothing is separate from it.

'Love our neighbor as your self' and '... what measure you use you shall be measured with' speaks to the fact that there is no separation...that what you are, I AM.

[Paulo]

If you don't mind I would like to do these one at a time rather than in groups of three. Takes longer, but is easier for me.

Of course Dave, I think that would be perfect. Respond at your own pace, and I look forward to your postings. Paulo :-)

[dkhaliel]

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

My guess is that separation does not exist at birth but is inculcated into babies by parents and teachers to help them integrate into their particular social unit and its teachings. Language development probably has a lot to do with this.
Probably (I myself don't remember) at birth we are simply being being. We are all, all is us and there is no thing but the ONE thing. Just ISness.
At some time early in the developmental process the teachings we are given begin to take hold and, in order to fit in and bring a sense of order to our environment, we begin to develop a sense of me and mine vs you and yours. We follow the rules set forth by out teachers to help us as helpless children navigate and fulfill our needs in what, after all, is a world designed by our teachers.

[Paulo]

That's good, I can tell you're really putting in the work for the final 7 questions, so keep up that momentum!

I will let you continue and answer all questions at your own pace, and will catch up with you again when you have responded to them all.

You're doing a great job Dave, keep it up, Paulo.

[dkhaliel]

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Since I have thought about this for several years prior to out discussions here, I guess all I can say is I am not very surprised. But it has enormous meaning for each of us in our lives. Communism, national socialism, and a myriad of other 'ism's, religious fervor, much that we are taught is good vs bad, and on and on, is just dreck. Invented by mind, by thought. My thought vs your thought. Our thoughts vs their thoughts. Only thought, but thought taught to be more that thought. Thought constructs taught to be reality, not thought constructs.
Not all of this socialization is bad. It helps us survive and flourish in a meaningful way with our neighbors. But much, much more is invented merely to control and steer the invented self down the invented pathway that that particular society demands.
The Ten Commandments, 'love your brother as yourself' (he really is, you know). To me those are reasonable guideposts, all based on love it seems. As to the rest of what we are taught from birth...well, I had a friend ask me a long time ago, 'You don't believe in much, do you?' And the answer is no.
I try to look for myself. Much has fallen away. There is still much that needs to be looked at.

[Paulo]

I guess all I can say is I am not very surprised.

Dave, the line above is all I've read from your previous response that actually relates to the question. This is not good, you've gone wandering off into thought. You've awoken, but then rolled over and hit the snooze button!

You may recall my analogy about running up a hill - if you stop half way it's so much harder to start again and you may go backwards - so GO GO GO!!!

There are seven questions in total, it won't take you an hour or two to answer them in full. I don't understand why you need days to 'think' about them - answer from direct experience only - no thinking required.

Answer question 3 again, this time give more detail and rely ONLY on your direct experience. And while you're at it answer the remaining questions as well, I don't understand this delaying.

Go for it Dave, don't let all that good work count for nothing - Paulo.

[dkhaliel]

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Answer question 3 again, this time give more detail and rely ONLY on your direct experience. And while you're at it answer the remaining questions as well, I don't understand this delaying.

OK. I see. To me, detail means thought but what is real is experience.
Seeing that there is no 'self' this feels like a clear space opening, or like the dropping of a burden that was being carried or like leaving a prison of my own making. But not a real prison. An imaginary prison of my own making. And an imaginary prisoner imagining living in a prison made of imaginings. Hard to say in words. I see that there is no 'self' for the 'self' to believe in and no self for the self to drop. It feels like feeling feeling. Like seeing seeing. Thoughts come up about the self being a waste of time but then the thoughts dissipate. Some feelings of sadness, some of relief, but they are brief. Then ISness comes and they fade. Words just don't work here.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

And you think this does not take time and deep searching to see and explain? Welp, it sure does for me.
As to the illusion I would tell them that I discovered that the troubles people find in the world and in themselves come simply from the fact that they think they know who/what they are but they do not. I would tell them that this imagined self is not real, that it is kept alive by fear and they can know the truth of that not through words but only if they will look deeply within themselves for themselves. And if they wanted to know more about it I would immediately send them HERE to let those more experienced with such discussions engage them in conversation. Anything else I could say would only confuse things and lead them away from understanding.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?




Well, it has been cold here where I live so I can not go outside, but I can look out my window & see the birds & squirrels go after the suet I hung on a tree.
I had been conversing with you back and forth daily for a while. was doing the 'looking for a me' exercise and decided to stop for a bit & look out my window.
Squirrels, a lot of starlings, a red headed woodpecker family and some nuthatches-It was the diversity that engaged my experiencing. As I was focused on all of the different behaviors of these creatures, 'I' just was no more. I did not control 'it', I was not in 'it' I did not own 'it'. I was 'it'. There was behavioring, thinking, seeing, happying, experiencing but there was no me.

6) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Well, the imaginary self of 70 years does not give up that easily. There is movement back and forth between thinking about being and just being watching thoughts. But as you say, what is seen cannot be unseen. I see that I am no different from who I always really was. I see that there was no change, that there need be no change. All is just how it is and that is OK. I have seen that I have not been lost, that I am home and have always been home. Yet I have a lot of exploring and discovering to do. How can words describe experiencing? Mine cannot.

7) Do you have anything to add about this investigation?



I very much appreciate you time and patience in this endeavor. I do not find this looking inside to be as easy or as quick as you might think.
Being being is a lot easier than being in charge and I deeply appreciate you helping me see through the falsehood of that burden. You yourself are simply LIFE lifeing but you are making the world a better place one person at a time and that is a life well lived.

[Paulo]

Thank you so much Dave for digging deep and coming through on this one. I'm immensely grateful to have shared this experience with you, it's been a real privilege – Bravo!

I do not find this looking inside to be as easy or as quick as you might think.

Just an expectation – whatever is, is. And guess what – here we are. It’s beautiful in its simplicity.

The next step is for me to submit your responses to other guides from the forum to confirm your seeing. They may have additional comments or questions for you. This part of the process may take a little time, but I will keep in touch either way.

A well-deserved BIG HUG from me – you’ve made it to the top of that hill – Paulo :-)