I would like a guide please

[mister]

But who are you to take ownership of it? That is very selfish don't you think? There are colonies of bacteria working to keep the body alive. Literally thousands of processes which take place without your say so. You're like a maladjusted king, full of your own importance, under the illusion you are ruling over all these processes.

It's not like I'm a thing that can claim the body. It's not like I'm this directing entity that can direct some of the things of the body. And even if that was true, the desires and urges that appear out of nowhere would be directing the director. It's more like I am this body, it is me or some part of it is.

And you don't really exist.

When I hear this it makes me think that this body doesn't really exist.

You believe you are you? So is it the body? Okay, so if your arm was ripped off by a bear, one one level it would be true to say "a part of me is missing" And if you cut your finger nails, on one level it would be true to say "parts of me are missing" But if you cut your finger nails you would not relate to your "self" as incomplete Look at that relationship (use different analogies)

So if my arm got ripped off it wouldn't feel like a part of me is missing. If all my limbs were gone it wouldn't. Basically the part of the body that feels like me is this space in the front of my head between, a little above, and behind the eyes. If that piece was cut up and a part was gone then it would feel like a part of me was missing. Or if that piece was gone it would feel like I'm gone.

How much of the experience of you is based on circumstantial evidence or prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation? Looking directly at the way the body and thought relate, what can be seen?

What makes this part me? Image-thoughts feel like they happen there. Image sensations don't. In direct experience images happen. It feels like the part behind the forehead is feeling the image somehow. But how is this part me? Other than the habit of associating the word me to the sensation of it, there is no reason I can see for it to be me. It doesn't direct anything. It doesn't see the images. The images are and the sensations of the behind-the-forehead-part turn up slightly in volume. That's in direct experience. Thought-images feel like they are happening there but again that's just because when thought-images are concentrated on the sensation of it increases in volume.

[mark_tywharton]

Basically the part of the body that feels like me is this space in the front of my head between, a little above, and behind the eyes. If that piece was cut up and a part was gone then it would feel like a part of me was missing. Or if that piece was gone it would feel like I'm gone.

Would it?

It is there in the imagination, there is nothing really there. So if that were gone, what would it feel like?

It feels like the part behind the forehead is feeling the image somehow.

Or is the brain doing more work than it needs to?

An analogy might be rowing a boat, but taking the oar out between each stroke to check the paddle.

Thought-images feel like they are happening there but again that's just because when thought-images are concentrated on the sensation of it increases in volume.

So what is it?

[mister]

mister wrote:
Basically the part of the body that feels like me is this space in the front of my head between, a little above, and behind the eyes. If that piece was cut up and a part was gone then it would feel like a part of me was missing. Or if that piece was gone it would feel like I'm gone.


Would it?

It is there in the imagination, there is nothing really there. So if that were gone, what would it feel like?

The location in my forehead is in imagination? No it's here. If that part were gone what would it feel like? That part wouldn't feel like anything. It's gone. If I had no forehead what would the experience be like? Same thing without the feeling of my forehead. Would I be gone? No I guess not. What would be me then? Maybe my chest. I guess there is nothing that is truly me.

mister wrote:
It feels like the part behind the forehead is feeling the image somehow.


Or is the brain doing more work than it needs to?

An analogy might be rowing a boat, but taking the oar out between each stroke to check the paddle.

Only when concentrating on that area of the forehead to see if it's actually feeling images as they happen. That only happens when looking to see if there is a me there. Otherwise images are happening and sensations in that forehead part may also be happening that coincide with images but I'd never noticed until looking for this.

mister wrote:
Thought-images feel like they are happening there but again that's just because when thought-images are concentrated on the sensation of it increases in volume.


So what is it?

It's just a sensation in my forehead. It's not me.

[mark_tywharton]

Same thing without the feeling of my forehead. Would I be gone? No I guess not. What would be me then? Maybe my chest. I guess there is nothing that is truly me.

Exactly

Only when concentrating on that area of the forehead to see if it's actually feeling images as they happen. That only happens when looking to see if there is a me there.

Everything gets referenced through some version of the imaginary "I" it is habitual.

Like riding a bicycle. How often do you stop and think about balance? Unless someone asked you to think about balance while riding the bicycle, then it probably may not have been noticed since the day riding a bike was mastered? Even walking. A lot of minute adjustments had to be made to get walking and now balance just happens in the background unless it is focused on. (Though you probably can't do anything about balance really, it gets learned through practice).

It's just a sensation in my forehead. It's not me.

Okay, cool.

If it is just a sensation in the forehead, why is there sensation in the forehead?

What is it a response to?

[mister]

It's a response to concentration. The thought behind it is "I'm going to miss something." I suppose the next question is, "What is the thing that will miss something?" Me. The guy who thinks there is a me who thinks there is a me. This is really frustrating.

[mister]

I was thinking more about this. It would probably be more accurate to say I'm the guy that believes there is a me. In this case me is the believer. It's the believer in the belief that I'm the thing that believes in me which is the believer. Okay. So let's look at belief. What does belief mean? It's a thought that is categorized as true. So is there a thing that categorizes thoughts as true? No. Thoughts are compared with experience and memory and if the thought consistently matches experience and memory it gets placed into true. So there is no believer. I don't believe in me. Me is just a thought that has been categorized as true. That's a relief.

[mark_tywharton]

How about:

There is a belief in a "me"

It seems as if this thing ought to have some qualities?

There are some qualities in aliveness, so pick one and say "yes that feels like me!"

It seems constant and gives grounds for authenticity, but is it a pretence?

Can you separate anything out from the emotions which has a distinct quality of you?

Anything which can be distinguished, which is not accountable for, by some other emotion, experience of sensation?

Is there anything there?

There is no YOU

[mark_tywharton]

There is also more going on than just a thought.

The sense of "I, me or self" gets felt in the body like a phantom limb.

It seems real enough till it is examined.

It is a bit like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Like a mirage.

And on examination it vanishes, because it was never really there.

This is a step by step process of examination.

Keep looking!

[mister]

There is a feeling in my solar plexus, a contraction. It comes up when I've eaten enough that my belly feels fat. It's terror. There is terror of me becoming fat. There is a body that can become fat. A big sense is the sense of being an unwanted thing. The fear of being fat is the fear of being unwanted. Or maybe it's the fear of being an un-beautiful thing. There is the contraction and sort of numbness in my head. A pulling away contraction in my solar plexus also. Basically it's all about the body. There is the physical characteristics there. There are its emotional qualitites too. Also lack of qualities. It's an unwanted thing.

What is me in all this? It's the image of the body. This body really is here. If there is no me it's not because there is no body. I'm really not seeing something or the lack of something you're pointing at.

[mark_tywharton]

Is there anything separate from all of those things described as "happening" which can be called you?

Those things are happening.

The common sense agreement is "those things are happening to me"

Is there a me, those things are happening to?

Or are those things just happening?

[mister]

Right now this isn't happening but hopefully I'll remember to look when it does.

Meeting someone happens and then eye contact happens. Is there something that this happens to? No. There is a sense or maybe an unworded thought that there is a seer of the other person's eyes. However there is no experience of a thing seeing the current image. Then an unworded thought occurs "are they going to like me". Does thought happen to me? Thought happens in experience. There is a sense or maybe belief - I don't know exactly - that there is something aware of this experience that thought is an aspect of. Then fear which is a contracted, screaming sensation in the chest. Again there is this sense that something is aware of this sensation and again that something isn't in experience.

Okay there is a sense that the experience is happening to me. Not even a sense. It's not experienced like a sense of something is. "To" me isn't even quite right. It's like I'm this thing that's aware of experience. It's vague. Anyway it takes aspects of experience and claims they're aspects of me. Mostly this body and its functions.

Is there anything separate from what is experienced that is me? No. There is no me those things are happening to in direct experience.

[mark_tywharton]

Explain direct experience

[mister]

Direct experience is sensation (all five types), and thought. That covers direct experience.

[mister]

Also I'd like to share this:

Am I the believer of thoughts? Is there a thing in experience that believes the thoughts?

What is a belief? A thought that is categorized as true. It's seen to be true. Is there seeing of thought? No. there is the experience of thought. Okay. Do beliefs happen in experience? They're thoughts that seem true. They're thoughts that seem to be accurate representations of experience. Is there something in experience that sees them? No. So are these my beliefs? No. So if the belief in me stops appearing to be accurate there won't be a me that sees it as inaccurate. It just won't appear accurate.

[mark_tywharton]

There are at least twenty senses to think about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense

What makes an experience direct?

Is there a you to experience it?

Or just the experience?