Looking for a guide

[Shell]

2) -see above -

Lets have a shot at the final questions, then, shall we?

Please, write very fully and in you own words. Direct SEEING. Please, really take your time with each question. Perhaps you would like to read through them all first...otherwise you might find yourself answering question 4 in question 1 already...In a sense, please forget this entire thread and treat these questions very freshly from your experience and certainty, now.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience? Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening


Much love,
Shell xxx

[NilsKromhout]

Hi Shell,

Here it comes...

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

There is no 'me' in reality, only in thought, not in form or shape. There never was. There is no self either. There is just life 'lifing'. 'Things' happening. Experiencing. No 'self' or 'me' that controls, observes or experiences anything.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

It is the illusion of a separate entity that runs a person's life. There is no person, so no person's life and no-one running it. It arises during early childhood when a child learns from its environment that certain parts of experience are separate from the rest and they are in control of those parts, the body, thoughts, emotions. They learn to put labels on elements of experience, separating it in pieces that they think they can manipulate. A special kind of label is "I" which is mostly put on actions: "I walk, I breathe, I decide, I choose", but also on (parts of) the body. This creates over time strong identity and sense of self that is illusory.
It turns into a lifetime habit, to label everything all the time. Claiming actions and things as possessions and under the person's control. But labels only exist in thoughts, not in reality. There is no person, there is no control.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

I never thought about how it feels, so I needed to think (and feel) a bit in order to put it in words here.
When I realised it for the first time, there was a big AHAAAA, a bit of relief I guess. Amazement that it is so simple.
Now (3 days later), when I remember that there is no person, after being caught in the illusion of self for a while, I notice a relaxation in the body, a loosening of ... something, less cramping inside the body.
Otherwise I don't see any big feelings linked to this.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I would (probably) first ask why they are curious and what they expect to find out about it. To get a bit of a feeling where they are in this process and if they are really ready.
Then I would probably hook on to things they say about it, to stay close to where they are the process.
At a certain point I would throw in the statement "there is no self or separate identity running your life" and ask what their reaction is to that statement.
Then based on their reaction see if there is resistance or fear, or interest to go further into some examples or even exercises using direct experience.
I don't think it is very useful to have an long intellectual dialog about it. That can only go so far. That person will need to LOOK to really get it.
I would definitely take it very gently. Leave the process to unfold as it does.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

It was a gradual process over a couple of days where I got used to direct SEEing. Then there were 2 moments of realisation (both when lying in bed by the way):
- one when I saw that there is no doer, no-one DOING anything, nobody with any influence or power whatsoever, no-one steering the body or thoughts or feelings or seeing for that matter. Seeing happens, but nobody steering the seeing.
- then with the second one the realisation came that there is no self. I was doing an exercise moving my hand from left to right, and LOOKING, and I saw or felt no self doing that. There was only a hand moving. Then a lot of pieces fell into place. It was so simple and in front of me the whole time.

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

The non-existant separate self. Otherwise it is very hard to use language. Not impossible but a bit silly if you ask me. So we pretend there is a self when using language in this world while knowing there really is no self. The "I" has no control anyway about using the word "I"!

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience? Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

There is only experience, no body or person experiencing. Life is experiencing AS the body. The body is part of experiencing. So I guess that means that the body 'belongs to' experience.
(Although personally I would not use 'belong to' since it implies some kind of ownership relation)

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

Like I described under question 3, when I realised it for the first time, there was a big AHAAAA, a bit of relief and amazement that it is so simple. I felt glad as well that to see it. There wasn't a major shift or anything.
Then shortly after, doubts came in, but I could see (or it was seen) that they were just thoughts coming up as part of experiencing.

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

There are some differences, some change. It is easier to directly see, to experience the body and surroundings in the 'here and now'. I had to think of mindfulness. It is much easier to be present.
Less strong emotions come up and they go away more quickly for sure. Less attachment to thoughts.
But there is no big change. Nils' life just continues and he continues doing what he does.

I hope these answers are OK.
Let me know if I misunderstood a question or if more elaborate answers are necessary.

Thanks!
Nils

[Shell]

Hello dear Nils,

I see you are online in this second and I have just received your reply and read it gladly. Nils, I will submit it now to the guides forum. Given that it is Sylvester tonight all over the world, there might not be an answer tonight from guides....they might be taking time out with their familes and friends, too.

I wish you and your family a very happy New Years and a peaceful, joyous every nano second from here on in :-)

Nils, are you familiar with personal messaging on this site? Just to test it out, so that you know how it works, I am going to send you a personal message just as soon as I have submitted this message.

What you do, is go to the top of this LU page; you look on the field at the top left corner of this page, background coulour is blue, for "User Control Panel". Directly to the right of the "User Control Panel" is the word, placed in brackets "messages". If you see "I new message"...well click on it and reply to me so that we are also in contact this way. And so I can keep you in touch.

Thank you for your clear and honest answers, Nils.

As always, with much love,
Shell xxx

[NilsKromhout]

Hi Shell,

I will enjoy the evening with family as well, so I am not waiting for an answer.

I wish you a great 'changing of the years' as well and all the best for next year.

Love,
Nils

[Shell]

<3

[Shell]

well, normally when you press the above symbols, a heart sign comes up! xxx