Curiouser and curiouser -- guide me through Wonderland?

[woodthrush]

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of separate self...
I am the doer and other people do unto me. I am fragile. I can be harmed. I must protect myself. Fear is at the root of the illusion of separate self.

Babies don't have a sense of self. I experienced that with all three of my children. They would grin and giggle when they experienced something pleasant. They would cry when hungry or uncomfortable. (Sometimes I think they cried just to hear themselves. They were fascinated by the sound! :-) ) But there was no willfulness or terror.

When did they start being willful? When did they first experience fear? Somewhere between ages two and three?

And of course they learned it from their dear old Mom and Dad! :-) We gave them names, and we believed that their names meant something. We believed that they were fragile and needed to be protected. (Uhhmmm.... okay... This is where nonduality runs up against mamma bear instincts. I still believe they need to be protected. Don't mess with mama bear. :-) ) Most importantly, Mom and Dad had a separate sense of self. We believed that we needed to do things to keep our lives on track. We believed that we could and needed to determine what that "track" was going to be. We believed we had control. Etc. Etc. The kids pick up on this. So we build up wall after wall -- all to protect ourselves from what we think is annihilation -- having no self.

[woodthrush]

Ugh... I never know what's going to come out when the writing starts. Some of this is not so uplifting, but I guess it doesn't need to be...

Language also plays a big role in the initial separation. For convenience's sake, we agree to call that huge living thing in the backyard a tree. And then we believe that it is a tree. Its essential nature is lost and replaced by a label. When the label is believed, it is all that is seen. To really experience the tree, one has to discard all the labels, all the linguistic descriptors, and just experience the tree. To experience the tree in a non-separate way, one has to completely forgo language. Makes it kind of hard to talk about non-duality. :-)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

Really enjoying what is being shared and appreciate you writing like wind. :)

Warm wishes,
John

[woodthrush]

Hi John:

Hi Liz,

Really enjoying what is being shared and appreciate you writing like wind. :)

Warm wishes,
John

Oh, cool! Thanks! :-)

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Heh. Well I tried with my husband today. He's studied David Hume and other enlightenment philosophers. I haven't. Lord save me from brilliant husbands and philosophers. :-) Anyways...

One wonders how they would be curious about the non-dual perspective if they haven't heard about it. :-) It wouldn't work to simply mention the existence of the non-dual perspective and then expect people to be curious. The non-dual perspective is different enough from "regular" experience that any mention of it to someone who wasn't ready to hear it may cause that person to shut down.

However, if the person has had an experience that has made them question their beliefs and, if they mention questioning those beliefs, I would try to discover more about that experience. I would see if there's anything I can say that would point them toward the non-dual perspective based on their own experience.

I realize this is kind of a non-answer. I guess I should simply say that I don't know and I'll find out when I get there. :-)

[woodthrush]

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

Oops, I forgot this one. I think I covered it in the answer to question 1, but if you want me explore it more or pull it out separately, just let me know. :-)

Best wishes,
--Liz

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Liz,

These are the one's left. :)

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Many thanks!
John

[woodthrush]

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

I don't remember any one specific moment. There was just a rising sense that I am not what I think I am.

I work in computers, and part of my job is to understand and define the problem that a brand-new piece of software is supposed to solve. Then I define how the software needs to behave in order to help the people solve the problem.

I start by throwing an idea, a prototype, up on the wall and allowing people to react to it. I find it's often much easier for people to react to an idea than it is for them to imagine something out of nothing. So I do the imagining for them, and let them say: "Yes, that's it." or "Oh no. Not that." We kind of spiral in, throwing out the ideas that don't work and refining the ideas that do work until the thing in the middle (the definition of what the software needs to do and how it needs to look and behave) becomes really well defined.

Well I was doing that with the question of "What am I?" and coming up empty-handed.
I am not my past. My past isn't real. What am I?
I am not my future. The future isn't real. What am I?
I am not my body. What am I?
I am not my thoughts. What am I?
I feel like the "me-sense" no longer stops at the skin. What am I?
I was looking in the middle of that spiral and had no clue what lay there.

And the answer: nothing! :-)

[woodthrush]

Hi Liz,

These are the one's left. :)

Thanks so much!

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

The sensing, doing, thinking, moving, experiencing just happen without anyone there to make it happen.

8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

Experience happens within the body, in the sense organs, thoughts, and emotions, in the looseness or tightness of muscles, in the heartbeat and the breath, in the digestion... But the body has no control over what is experienced. Experience happens and the body is its vehicle.

[woodthrush]

9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

It feels wrong to use the past tense. The awakening is still happening.

In general, the experience is of a great lightness of being. :-)

10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Wonder. :-)

[woodthrush]

Thanks so much, John. :-)

[s-p-a-c-e]

Thank you Liz. WIll ask the other guides to take a look and get back to you very soon. :)

Best wishes,
John