Unravelling (seeking a guide)...

[Derek]

Okay, this is a start.

But just to be absolutely clear, this is NOT about shifting anything. I can't emphasize that strongly enough. It is about seeing the nature and mechanisms of what's already there. SEEING, not shifting.

It's good that you've recognized that word-thought creations are somehow flimsier than direct experience. Also that you've observed how experiences give rise to labels, which then proliferate into thoughts that are more and more removed from what's really being experienced.

Meditation may help to slow the process down so that you can more clearly see it in action.

So just watch the process whereby real, direct, sensory experiences turn into words.

Some questions for you.

You felt the cold water against your hand, and your mind produced the label "cold." Did you see that movement taking place? If not, devote another 30-60 seconds to looking at what the mind does in response to experiences. Watch how the mind labels things.

Where do the words come from? Where do they go to?

A French-speaker, having exactly the same sensory experience as you with the cold water, would see the mind producing the label "froide." Yet your mind produced the label "cold." What does that tell you about the labeling process? Are the labels really in any way connected with the raw experience?

[unravelme]

Okay, this is a start.

But just to be absolutely clear, this is NOT about shifting anything. I can't emphasize that strongly enough. It is about seeing the nature and mechanisms of what's already there. SEEING, not shifting.

Okay. Thanks for that clarification.

It's good that you've recognized that word-thought creations are somehow flimsier than direct experience. Also that you've observed how experiences give rise to labels, which then proliferate into thoughts that are more and more removed from what's really being experienced.

Yes, an example: I went walking barefoot in the bush today. Heard a noise. Looked down. Saw something. Felt a rush of adrenalin/fear. Recognised the 'something' as a snake's tail. What I noticed was that the seeing and the feeling happened before the labelling of the experience - both the 'fear' and the 'snake'. Then there were stories about 'what if I'd been bitten', remembering my friend's story who was bitten by a tiger snake, that I wouldn't have made it to the writing workshops etc. These stories went on until I became aware of the storytelling. Then the stories stopped.

When there's awareness without much if any thought, there's a feeling of great attentiveness within the mind and body, of stillness, and connection with surroundings.

Meditation may help to slow the process down so that you can more clearly see it in action.

Thanks, I stopped meditating in any structured way a couple of months ago after listening to Adyashanti's CD on 'The Natural State of Meditation'. But it definitely helps me to slow thoughts down so I can see more clearly what's happening.

So just watch the process whereby real, direct, sensory experiences turn into words.

Yes, watching that this morning while walking.

Some questions for you.

You felt the cold water against your hand, and your mind produced the label "cold." Did you see that movement taking place? If not, devote another 30-60 seconds to looking at what the mind does in response to experiences. Watch how the mind labels things.

It seems as though when I look that almost causes the labelling to take place. Sometimes there's a quality of attention in my experience that's very still, with little or no labelling. Then I look to see where is this self, how does it label, where's the first movement. And all of that is thought moving. Is there something other than thought that sees the movement? Or does thought see itself?

I'll keep working with this one.

Thank you for your patience and persistance.

Where do the words come from? Where do they go to?

A French-speaker, having exactly the same sensory experience as you with the cold water, would see the mind producing the label "froide." Yet your mind produced the label "cold." What does that tell you about the labeling process? Are the labels really in any way connected with the raw experience?

[unravelme]

Dear Derek,

I am seeing clearer the falseness of the 'I' thoughts and stories. Still a running commentary, but taken less seriously. A feeling of old stories that have caused me lots of pain and anxiety over the years falling away - losing their tangibility or realness. Seen as just stories.

Feeling a deeper connection with nature and inward response/responding to what is seen/felt/heard/smelt. Also, old stories/judgements falling away in my primary relationship. Felt much more present with my husband today.

I know this measuring/comparing/sense of progress is another part of the illusion of self becoming. But there is definitely something quite different about the quality of experience today.

[Derek]

the seeing and the feeling happened before the labelling of the experience - both the 'fear' and the 'snake'.

Now that is the key thing to see! The experience is one thing, the labeling happens second as a commentary pasted on top of the experience. Seeing it for yourself, in action, as it happens, is the key thing.

These stories went on until I became aware of the storytelling. Then the stories stopped.

Exactly. They're ephemeral, like clouds that appear and then disappear.

[Derek]

I am seeing clearer the falseness of the 'I' thoughts and stories. Still a running commentary, but taken less seriously. A feeling of old stories that have caused me lots of pain and anxiety over the years falling away - losing their tangibility or realness. Seen as just stories.

Exactly! That again is a key thing to see for yourself. A story is not a real experience. And now you've seen that.

Please bear with me for another apparently trivial exercise. It consists of two stories, each with an accompanying question for you to answer.

Story 1. Three unicorns stood in a field. The first unicorn said, "I'm hungry." The other two unicorns said, "We're hungry too." So they all went off and got something to eat.

Question 1. Do unicorns exist in reality?

Story 2. Three horses stood in a field. The first horse said, "I'm hungry." The other two horses said, "We're hungry too." So they all went off and got something to eat.

Question 2. Do horses exist in reality?

[unravelme]

Story 1. Three unicorns stood in a field. The first unicorn said, "I'm hungry." The other two unicorns said, "We're hungry too." So they all went off and got something to eat.

Question 1. Do unicorns exist in reality?
Not in this reality. In this reality, they are imaginary creatures.

Story 2. Three horses stood in a field. The first horse said, "I'm hungry." The other two horses said, "We're hungry too." So they all went off and got something to eat.

Question 2. Do horses exist in reality?

Yes, horses exist in this reality. They don't talk in this language though ;-)

Not sure of the point of this story - except perhaps to illustrate that unicorns are like 'I's - if they believe they exist they will behave as though they have needs to be fulfilled. And a whole complex story could arise out of that fundamental error. (Or if we believe they exist.)

Seeing clearer and clearer the illusory nature of 'I'. No sudden explosive revelations - but a gradual seeing of what I've known intellectually for a long time. And from this I can see how so much suffering becomes unnecessary - created through identification and stories. And through 'I' thinking it is somehow separate from what is actually happening - and then wanting to change it or control it. It's the movement away from the experience of what is that brings pain. Or at least the kind of pain that sticks.

Old ways of thinking still come up, but it's easier to see it more quickly and then it dissolves - without efforts - without shoulds. Without 'I' trying to control 'me'.

[unravelme]

p.s. letting go of my old expectations of what awakening should look like: that's just a memory and a story too. What's real, what's relevant, is what's happening right now.

[Derek]

Oh, you are waking up without my help!

In the story about the unicorn, you see it is perfectly possible to concoct an intelligible story, yet where the starring character has no existence outside the world of words.

But then the same story can be told about things that really exist.

So in which category is a story featuring this amazing character "I"?

[unravelme]

Oh, you are waking up without my help!

Without whose help?

In the story about the unicorn, you see it is perfectly possible to concoct an intelligible story, yet where the starring character has no existence outside the world of words.

But then the same story can be told about things that really exist.

Yes, I understand.

So in which category is a story featuring this amazing character "I"?

The character 'I' exists in the world of words and ideas.

As I said yesterday, the commentary/stories are still running, but I'm seeing the thoughts more easily/quickly now and the stories are falling away or dissolving as they are seen. There's an awareness that anything that brings me into conflict with what is is a manifestation of this 'I'.

Based on memories of past experiences, what I am going through now is more of a purification than an actual awakening. I is recognising itself as a false construct. This recognition/seeing allows particular thoughts/ideas/beliefs/stories to dissolve as they are seen. But there is still the movement of a central figure or awareness.

When I 'woke up' 17 years ago, there was a complete dissolving of the centre, such that for a short time there was no division between awareness of this individual and awareness of what was seen/smelt/heard/felt/experienced. There was a dissolving into Love (for want of a better word) and utter peace within this consciousness. Then that faded and I re-emerged, but with much less activity.

So, to recap, I trust what is happening now. It is all that 'I' can 'do' or be aware of from this separate consciousness. Of course there is no 'I' to do anything - except to see itself in operation and how self is created/projected from the screen of mind. You call this 'awakening'. I call this 'purification'.

[unravelme]

p.s. Thanks so much for your help! ;-)

[Derek]

What a joy to behold.

What you call "purification" I call "evaporation." Some slight opposition to reality arises. A false impression of a self gets created. Then clear seeing happens. And then the illusion evaporates.

Is there anything else you'd like to do here on Liberation Unleashed, or is our dialogue at an end? We do have a confirmation process if you want to join in and help others to see. But I leave it up to you to tell me where you'd like to go next.

It's already Thursday where you are, so I understand if you're off the Internet for a while.

[unravelme]

Derek,
Yes - it's profound and yet so subtle, and even simple. And I am profoundly grateful to you and the others on Liberation Unleashed who offer these service to all who are ready and willing to see. I'd love to help others...AND I feel there's more evaporation/purification to occur before I'll feel ready for this. In the meantime, I'm happy to answer your questions and go through your 'confirmation' process. Also interested in your 'after care'. Especially given how I've tripped myself up in the past after seeing this clearly.
Catching the bus today, but will have internet access tonight and tomorrow morning.
Blessings and kindest regards,
N.

[Derek]

Wonderful. Yes, there are some aftercare groups open to members only. "Unleashed" is a sort of central gathering place. Astonishingly, there are some 400 members in it now. "Beyond the Gate" is more specifically for aftercare. I don't know how many are in that one, since I'm not a member. "LU Central" is for people who want to help liberate others from the illusion of a personal self. That has over 100 members. And then there are a few others -- "Dealing with the Residue" for psychological residue, etc.

Anyway, our confirmation procedure -- not perfect, but it's all we have -- is to ask prospective members if they would answer these five questions:

(1) Is there a "me," at all, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

(2) Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts, and how it works.

(3) How does it feel to see this?

(4) How would you describe this to somebody who has never heard about this illusion?

(5) Normally we ask about the moment when you first saw through the illusion, so either you could reiterate what prompted you to see back in 1995, or you could say a bit about what's helped clarify your seeing in the last couple of days.

[unravelme]

Thank you, Derek. I will sit with these questions for a few days. A little shaky today. Feeling the need to deepen into this presence. And still trusting and embracing of the process and whatever comes up.
Blessings,
N.

[unravelme]

Dear Derek,
I'm not ready to answer the questions in any formal way yet...I could, but there's a deepening that wants to be followed first, so I am with that. In the meantime, my daily report (which I probably won't manage on Saturday, but should be back on board by Sunday):

How to describe what's happening now:  Many 'I' thoughts still arising - especially those that would love to claim this experience, to project it forwards into the future, to make stories about who 'I' will become now I 'have' this understanding etc etc etc. Also many stories about why it didn't hold the first time.

Around this, much space and stillness. A lovingness that does not judge these thoughts, that does not try to get rid of them, that allows everything to be as it is. Thoughts arise, 'I' identify with them, sometimes they develop into little stories and imaginings. Then at some point (now), there is a 'seeing' of the thoughts as thoughts rather than truth. With this seeing, identification dissolves and the mind is quiet again. Quieter than it's been for a long long time. Witnessing is effortless - it is just happening - its own natural unravelling process - unravelling years (centuries/millenia?) of conditioning. Unravelling is disentangling being from frozen concepts and beliefs of 'I', settling deeper into this beingness as the veils and ribbons fall away.

My first spiritual teacher (Cheryl Stoll) recorded a beautiful tape called 'What is Meditation?" I am reminded of the process she describes there - of how the mind is like a jungle and a jungle cannot understand a jungle, nor can it disentangle itself. The jungle is made up of many trees. Some of these trees are huge - they have been fed so much energy and attention for so long that they tower above everything else. And many other trees are entangled with them. There are vines too. Everything: one big tangle.

One of the biggest trees in 'my' jungle is the desire for enlightenment. It was the one belief/concept I kept believing in after the first time I saw the illusory/constructed nature of self. So much reading and hearing of others' spiritual experiences. I had this very rock solid idea of what 'I' was aiming for. And as I strained to reach that imagined place (instead of sinking deeper into presence and trusting that), the jungle that had been falling away of its own accord began to resurrect itself. Firstly subtly: with images/concepts of how I should behave/write/relate to others now that I'd had this awakening. Then insecurity, then pride, then self-defence etc.

Light, spaciousness and being became cluttered again by thought-forms. One morning I woke up and it felt as though the jungle had completely regrown - only this time even darker and deeper than before.

So I am, as these understandings come to me, the danger of holding onto anything: any aspect of self/belief/becoming, any movement in time.

We have to give up the idea of and the goal of enlightenment. That's what's so incredibly valuable about what you guys are doing here. Most spiritual teachers seem to offer a pathway to enlightenment - tantalisingly close. We feel it as our beingness vibrates in the presence of theirs. But then there is efforting, techniques, systems, signposts; and as soon as we leave the satsang (or the quiet reading of spiritual texts), we are back in time, trying to be other than who we are right now.

This is the serpent of deception, the great temptation. Anything that takes us away from the now is a temptation. The temptation to believe in a future or a past and in a self that can move through time, accumulating experiences, growing wiser, deeper, greater, humbler, more honest etc etc etc.

So, there are still these thoughts running through 'me', but I am seeing them as yet another movement of the constructed 'I'. And I no longer trust the urge to merge, which actually separates me from my own beingness. I see clearly that 'I' and 'me' do not exist at all as subjects or objects separate from being.

I feel as though I am dipping my toes in a vast ocean of awareness.  There is so so much to see, to feel, to respond to in this vast and complex world. Each tree, each flower, each blade of grass are gestures of being, and the beingness within me responds inwardly with feelings. Attending to these inner responses, there is awareness of layers and layers of subtlety I have hitherto been largely blind to.

Even my own body is a mystery to me. Having lived most of my life in the superficial waves of thought, I have been quite insensitive to this physical being, which is immensely sensitive and responsive to the world around it. There are aches and pains I have ignored  and probably exacerbated by living insensitively, by making dietary and lifestyle choices based on superficial beliefs rather than a moment to moment atunement to the inner intelligence that would tell me how to care for this body.

It's like being a child, learning to walk again. Learning to do the most basic tasks with presence. I have lived most my life on autopilot as I've been completely bewitched by the movie running in my own head, by the increasing cacophony of thoughts agreeing and disagreeing with each other, fighting, making up, making up stories, and so on.

So there is simplicity here. And there is also complexity. But I no longer have to try and understand the complexity, because I am a part of it. I am like one petal on a flowering tree. All I need is to express the beingness that is uniquely held within this physical/mental form. And be. Simply be. The being is the expression. There is nothing to do and no separate 'one' to do it.