I would like to work with mark_tywharton, please.

[Sanna]

Okay... Mark, thanks for explaining about your computers Caps button being locked. :)

IMAGINATION HAS BEEN CREATING THE ILLUSION OF THE EXPRESSION OF A "YOU" FOR DECADES

Yes, and it seems so VERY REAL!

REALLY CHECK IT AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY SUBSTANCE TO IT, IS THERE AN "I, ME, OR SELF' TO BE FOUND IN THIS PLACE NEO?

The feeling/sensation of me that is being looked at feels real, though the feeling is the perception.
Okay, the feeling doesn't have any substance to it, it cannot be held, but there is a feeling of me/I/self present.
That sensation of a me is taken to be another separate me, when really there is only the perceiving of the sensation -present.

THE UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING THAT SOMETHING IS MISSING IS BECAUSE DEEP DOWN THERE IS ALREADY A RECOGNITION THAT THERE REALLY IS NO "I"

Yes, that 'feels' clear somewhere! Somehow! Like on some 'level' it is obvious but somehow obscured or in the shadows, but there isn't actually a me/I/self lurking there....or even any actual shadows.

FROM WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT BEING A CHILD JUMPING IN A PUDDLE IT SEEMS LIKELY THERE WAS AN ATTACHMENT, AN INAUTHENTIC IDENTIFICATION WITH FREEDOM/JOY AS SELF

Yes. Something misidentifies with the sensations...or there is the presence of 'misidentifying' happening.

AND IN YOUR SEEKING YOU LOOK FOR PEACE, RELAXATION, CONTENTMENT AND JOY HOPES TO VALIDATE SELF
WHEN PEACE, RELAXATION, CONTENTMENT AND JOY ARE NOT AVAILABLE THERE IS A FEELING OF BEING INVALIDATED, AS IF THERE IS NO AUTHENTIC "YOU"

This seeker, this 'one' that feels invalidated is a sensation.

SOMETHING IS PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING IT IS NOT

It happens!

THOSE STATES CAN NEVER BE FULLY EXPERIENCED OUT HERE IN THE WORLD BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS IDENTIFY THEM AS THE "SELF" SENSE WHENEVER THEY SHOW UP

IDENTIFYING WITH THE SENSATIONS IS HAPPENING.

PUT ANOTHER WAY, THEY ARE NOT AVAILABLE - HENCE THE CONSTANT SEEKING UNTIL YOU CAN RECOGNISE THIS IS HAPPENING YOU ARE DOOMED TO SEEKING THAT WHICH YOU THINK YOU ALREADY ARE

There is this presence of seeking HAPPENING...The presence of indentifying.

LET GO OF IDENTIFICATION WITH THIS FEELING (AND ANY OTHERS) IF SOMETHING SHOWS UP AS "I, ME, OR SELF" EXAMINE IT, FIND OUT WHAT IT IS, AFFIRM IT "THIS SENSE OF FREEDOM IS A SENSE OF FREEDOM IT IS NOT WHO I AM"

The sense of freedom is simply that - a sensation...there is simply the presence of Identifying happening.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE "ME" EXPERIENCE IN LIGHT OF THIS CONVERSATION?

THIS WHOLE 'SHOW' IS HERE...IN EXPERIENCE OF ITSELF....WHAT IT IS CANNOT BE TOUCHED....IT IS EXPERIENCING....ITSELF.

Looking at this sense of me...this is also an experience...a sensation...there isn't an actual me doing any looking...simply the sensation of presence of a me looking...which is then translated into the existence of an actual separate me living in the body which is also a sensation.

Oblique Strategies

Mark...thanks for this....I hadn't heard of this before...googled it...looks like a fun tool for exploring ways to unlock any creativity that may be lurking somewhere in the 'shadows.'

[mark_tywharton]

So is there a real you?

Or is there just life happening?

Just let go of the idea that any of this is a you

There is no you

Just life happening

Life's capacity for awareness is invisible to the senses

There is just nothing (no part of you) experiencing everything [and putting this into language is tricky - use this particular sentence as a pointer - as in "look the moon" - the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon - one needs to follow the finger to find the moon

So nobody owns it - it just is - not even life or God owns it because life or God don't have any real identity either - certainly not in the way human beings anthropomorphise it/them!

Now, if a sense "oh I get it" arises, please examine it

Is there REALLY an 'I, me or self' doing any of it?

Again, examine and report

[Sanna]

So is there a real you? Or is there just life happening?

There really isn't a me or a you...me and you are simply ideas - There may appear a tingling sensation on the head and suddenly a thought - along with an image - appears, "Shit there's a f--king spider crawling on my head", but when the spider is looked for, it isn't/wasn't actually there (well, it may have been, but not in this analogy, ha!) - neither is there an actual me or you anywhere to be found.

Whatever THIS IS -IT- IS HERE 'HAPPENING.'...WHATEVER THAT MEANS.

Life's capacity for awareness is invisible to the senses

And that's it in a nutshell....There is the CAPACITY for all this experiencing...but what That Capacity IS 'who' can say.
There are these senses/perceptions existing as experience...and as though within this experience there is also the sensation/feeling/idea of a me that is having the experience.

There is just nothing (no part of you) experiencing everything [and putting this into language is tricky - use this particular sentence as a pointer - as in "look the moon" - the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon - one needs to follow the finger to find the moon

The experience of pointing is happening as is seeing the moon....and this experience isn't happening to or for me or you...That's All that's HERE....The 'SEEING/PERCEIVING' of the finger and the moon. THE SEEING ITSELF.

Ha! Don't look at the finger, see what it's pointing to.

So nobody owns it - it just is - not even life or God owns it because life or God don't have any real identity either - certainly not in the way human beings anthropomorphise it/them!

If there isn't an identity...there cannot be any desire to own....Without the sense of identity (a me) there isn't
anything there that can do any owning. (Also seen - simply the Seeing - is that there isn't anything to own)

Now, if a sense "oh I get it" arises, please examine it, Is there REALLY an 'I, me or self' doing any of it?

No, there isn't anyone or anything that can 'get' anything...there is simply the presence of a sensation, this sensation is as if translated into a feeling-idea that there is an actual physical someone/me that is having an experience.

[mark_tywharton]

Can you share the other stuff you PM'd me about in this thread?

Then look at what is behind that feeling?

If there is no you, how can you have that feeling?

Why would that feeling be a problem?

If there is no you having an attachment to a feeling life can occur as some kind of cosmic joke?

Look there next.

[Sanna]

Can you share the other stuff you PM'd me about in this thread?

I feel that part of the problem in seeing This - if indeed it as been seen at all - doesn't appear to have had the impact that was expected...there is a feeling of not being elated, instead a kind of feeling deflated ...sure there are those moments when it is clear - that there is simply this 'Happening'...but strangely this doesn't quite feel 'enough'...well, I mean after the experience has left....there isn't the feeling that it has all been done and dusted...or is it?....It's all so disappointing....this leads to the conclusion that it has not been seen at all...maybe there has simply been some kind of 'glimpse/intimation' of something that isn't quite being SEEN- 'fully.'


This may be why there is so much difficulty in writing too much detail in these posts, obviously there is some kind of uncertainty. There is still the feeling that something is missing.

Mark, I will say this though, what you wrote about "Life's capacity for awareness is invisible to the senses", definitely appears to have struck an invisible chord ...somewhere!

Also - "Something is pretending to be something it is not", this is a case of 'nearly' seeing what that something is/or isn't! But then it's gone.

And - this whole pointing to not being the sensations and seeing that there is an identifying with the sensations.

Is definitly stirring 'something' up.

Then look at what is behind that feeling?

This seems impossible...how to look behind the feelings...there isn't anything there...simply the attempt at trying to look 'behind' the feelings...how can there be anything behind This? :)

If there is no you, how can you have that feeling?

Bloody right!...so what's that all about? Unless of course you mean - all that exists is the presence of the 'feeling' and there isn't anyone there in receipt of the feeling...the feeling comes with a sense of being known...sorry, I've lost the plot...senses within senses!

Why would that feeling be a problem?

It wouldn't...you know what, maybe all this non duality stuff is a load of f--king crap! Trying to find something - Oneness- and all along there isn't anything to find....right, ignore everything that I have written so far...I hear by announce that in my opion - All Is Separation, there bloody is a ME, so there! :)

If there is no you having an attachment to a feeling, life can occur as some kind of cosmic joke? Look there next.

MY mind has gone blank!

Also, at the back oy MY mind are some music tracks that a friend pointed out to ME that I would like to go and listen to...bloody great tracks! But wait...I'll listen to them later on tonight when EVERYONE has gone to sleep.

Maybe I am just tired, so I'll continue looking....Feel like I need to "Break Out - Smash Robots!"


Cheers Mark! :)

[mark_tywharton]

Read all of this and think through it quickly without breaking it into sections and replying to individual parts.

Don't over think any of this, it is not important, the destination is important.

Leave all attachment to being right about individual answers behind with each new question.

This is a map (or at least set of directions) and the answer will come at the end of the instruction set.

First, mind going blank?

What is the next thought that arises?

Where does it come from?

Is there an "I, me or self" thinking this thought?

Is there even a mind? or are there just thoughts? apparently occurring naturally in sequence?

What is disappointment?

Expectation? followed by imagination and a story of what enlightenment would be like?

Followed by enlightenment?

Or, is it just more imagination of what enlightenment is like?

What is it being compared to?

Is there really a reference point?

Where is freedom, happiness and joy?

Can it be experienced as it is yet?

Or is it still being held onto objectively?

Can freedom, happiness and joy happen without relating them to anything?

Is there an "I, me or self" for them to relate to?

How do they relate to "you"

Is there a real you?

Describe enlightenment!

[Sanna]

Last night went to bed after having listened to those music tracks, a very enjoyable experience, got lost in the music, didn't give any thought to all this non duality stuff. This morning, there is the notion to stay with the experience of the body, not to place the attention on the body, rather there is as if an experiencing FROM the body - THE EXPERIENCING BODY.Or, the body experience itself.


Trying to see 'behind' the 'feelings' and seeing that there ISN'T anything there, simply the presence of the feelings being experienced (not being experienced by a me, simply the 'event' of feelings being felt - happening/present)


There isn't any such 'thing' as a mind.

As there isn't any such thing as a mind it can't come from 'somewhere.'

There most definitely is NOT a thinker - I/self/me - of thoughts. I/self/me IS a thought.

Disappointment is an idea, a thought about how things should be, or how they would be prefered to be. Disappointment is thought, there isn't anyone that is disappointed, or being disappointed, there isn't anyone having the thought of disappointment, there is simply the presence of disappointment, or rather the presence of a sensation that is - as if - being 'translated' as a 'thing' called disappointment.


Expectation is also a sensation that is translated into a thought - "I expect this or that."

Imagination is a succession of sensations being translated into thoughts and images and sound that appear to be related, combined to tell a story, the combination of these succession of sensations is being as if translted into a story. Also, more thoughts appear about the 'previous' thoughts, these 'next' thoughts can then either tell-project a story of so called what will happen next (the 'future'), or these new thoughts could give rise to memories of 'previous' events and then a new chain of sensations about those previous memories 'give rise' to a string of new thoughts translated about 'past' events. (This is being typed out fast, so it probably isn't as coherent as it could be, but, I'm sure you understand what is trying be be conveyed)


It doesn't feel relevent to try to describe the story of what enlightenment would be like - there have been many stories about what enlightenment might be/mean, so trying to document these would simply create one big jumble of mixed up words.


Enlightenment appears to being a story or description about the present sensation of the apparent seeing that there isn't any such actual thing as a ME living somewhere in this body and somehow being in control of the functioning of the body. ME is an idea/thought about the sensations/perceptions that are then translated as being experienced by a me, or rather there appears to be the notion/idea that for these sensations and then thoughts to be present there must be someone in receipt of the sensations and a someone responsilbe for the creation of the thoughts and that someone is also aware of the sensations and thoughts when really there isn't a someone, simply this Life, whatever that is, happening/being as it Is. As though it is Life itself - not exactly giving translation to itself - simply being, and an 'aspect' - (there are no aspects, this is simply a way to communicate or an attempt to say something about all this, but even this attempt is Life itself being that attempt)- of Life appears as a human being apparently 'having' an experience.

Enlightenment is an idea about the possibility of life being experienced/lived in some 'other' much more fulfilling
way.That the so called 'I' once enlightened can somehow start living in a better way. The reference point of enlightenment is the idea of what enlightenment will be like. Enlightenment is an idea about how life could be better lived/experienced, the idea of enlightenment is being compared to other ideas about how life is not good enough as it is.

There is the presence of the appearance of this human body that is apparently having an experience, the human body is This Life appearing as that and 'everything else' - One Whole Presence Being As (It) Is.


Freedom, happiness and joy are pleasurable sensations. There appears to be an attempt to try and 'capture' those sensations and hold on to them and it is almost as though the more there is this 'attempt' to do so the harder it is for there to be the presence of those sensations of freedom, happiness and joy (one and the same sensation), that striving to capture a sensation and own it appears to cause a lot of frustration, suffering, or at least it appears to give rise to other sensations of what is called frustration, interpreted as thoughts of a ME that is suffering.

If the sansations of freedom, happiness and joy should be present - appear- then that is what is here, but they do not belong or happen to a me, THEY ARE SIMPLY PRESENT. Though, strangely, its almost as if when there isn't the presence of seeking to hold onto or to own the pleasurable sensations, there appears to be the presence of the sensation of - freedom, happiness and joy.


There isn't an I/me/self in existence - other than as a thought - that can relate to anything. Sensations do not arise in relation to anything else, they are simply present, there is only the apparency of a body that is in experience of the sensation.


Right...Mark, the wife is DEMANDING that we go to Sainburys, so as soon as we get back I'll check to see if you have replied to this post.

Thanks...Mark! :)

Sorry about the repetition...found this amoung the 'Oblique Strategies' that you pointed out - "Repetition is a form of change."

[Sanna]

A continuation of the above ^ posted this morning......

What is 'behind' the feeling?

While in Sainsburys and holding some Brussel Sprouts there was the feeling of the Brussel Sprouts, then there were thoughts about the Brussel Sprouts - "are these the right kind?" So, behind the thoughts and the feelings is the CAPACITY for the existence of the feelings and thoughts.

Capacity Is All.

Right...got to rush back to Sainsburys to pick up the wife and groceries.

:)

[mark_tywharton]

Okay starting in another place (this has no beginning, middle, or end)

Things happen

The brain gets stimulated

Through selective perception there is apparent coherence/motion

The brain constructs an environment then projects an idea of it out here in the world

It is as if there is a world of colour, light, sensation, sound and taste out here in the world

Think about animals and insects that select alternative light and sound spectrums to construct their worlds from

Humans like to think they are right about the way they do things

Consider there is no right way, only action and thought patterns

Consider thought patterns are habitual and are simply the way "we" selectively perceive reality until new ways are learned which supersede/replace previous patterns of thinking

Consider there is no "you" that can do anything about this

The outcome of this conversation is inevitable, it has already been chosen

Agree!

Okay so now consider everything that happened today was to facilitate a future state of freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

Consider cause and effect

The "reason" all this is happening is so that the brain can validate a "self"

There is avoiding (disappointment and/or an uncomfortable feeling that something is missing) and seeking validation of "self" by creating a sense of freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

Consider this is the pattern of thought the brain is addicted to

Consider that "you" are seeking enlightenment to get a greater sense of freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

Except, the more "you" try and own it the less "you" will be able to grasp it

Perhaps this is why people who do self development come out with a stronger sense of "self" validation as in "Hey wow, I am freedom" or "I am peace" or "I am relaxed" or "I am content" or "I am joy"

How many so called "enlightened people" talk about "being bliss"

That seriously takes some work. You will need to wear all the right clothes, carry the right crystals, drink the right water and make sure you only do certain things under certain astrological conditions

That is not to say don't do those things, they can be enlivening/invigorating but cannot be owned

Examine today - where did what arise as your core values align with creating freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy (right now or in the future)

What was there holding the brussel sprouts?

Consider there is a part of aliveness that doesn't give a shit about freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

It was here with the physical form when your mother delivered it into this world

It didn't care about freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

It didn't need to avoid (disappointment and/or an uncomfortable feeling that something is missing)

It is always here and it will always be here

It doesn't care about freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

It doesn't need freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy

It doesn't care about avoiding (disappointment and/or an uncomfortable feeling that something is missing)

Consider "I, me or self" is just something that appears here in all this

And disappears here in all this

Something IS always present

NOW describe IT

[mark_tywharton]

there is an S missing!

where did "what arises as your core values" align with...

[Sanna]

What was there holding the brussel sprouts?

This body with all it's memories, conditioning - ways of behaving/responding, thought patterns, ideas etc.

Examine today - where did what arises as your core values align with creating freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy (right now or in the future)

I do not understand the meaning of the above ^ statement.

Something IS always present. NOW describe IT

The sense of Being Here, This Aliveness, Being Aware.

Mark...sorry, there doesn't appear to be any other way to describe the sense of Being Here.

[Sanna]

An addition to what was posted above ^

What was there holding the brussel sprouts?

This body with all it's memories, conditioning - ways of behaving/responding, thought patterns, ideas etc.

Examine today - where did what arise as your core values align with creating freedom/ peace/ relaxation/ contentment/ joy (right now or in the future)

I do not understand the meaning of the above ^ statement.

Something IS always present. NOW describe IT

The sense of Being Here, This Aliveness, Being Aware.

Mark...sorry, there doesn't appear to be any other way to describe the sense of Being Here.


The addition - There is the presence of the experience of Being Here - This Aliveness - Being Aware, but it is impossible to describe the experience. The experience of Being is indescribable.

[mark_tywharton]

So is there a you?

Put another way can an "I, me, or self" be found here?

How does it feel?

[Sanna]

A me other than the thought me cannot be found. It (me) does not exist as an actual thing, me is simply an idea.
Me is found to be a thought.

To be honest, every time the attention/awareness is placed upon the sense of This Beingness, there is the sense/experience of That Awesome Vast Presence of THE BEING HERE.

[mark_tywharton]

Okay cool

Anything else?