Hello

[Metta777]

Jorge, Sit still and hear and see and smell , can sight be separated from the seer? Can hearing be separated from the hearer? Or is it just happening. Can the sight,smell, hearing be controlled? Or does it just happen? Metta777

[Jorge786]

Ok, thanks

[Metta777]

Hi Jorge, Are you working on this? Is there identity in your sight,smell or touch, can you find it anywhere. Or do they just happen? Something good is cooking and the smelling just happens. Metta

[Jorge786]

Yes, Im here now, in a conflict with the realization of why Im looking for this "enlightenment", the reason is "Jorge" wants to be superior to each other, "Jorge" as say "I" wants be a "illuminati" "un iluminado", a Master, a Rishi, should be fun if it was not unpleasant and painful

[Jorge786]

I do not know if it really matters if we could nip around the ego, and I'm still here playing at being something "important" with my intellectual games, better go sit to hear, smell, feel , "Jorge" needs a spanking

[Metta777]

So you have some expectations of enlightenment, what are they? The ego keeps us wrapped up in illusion. No one is here to be judged or to judge. Intellectualizing is just preventing what is and causing suffering. This is Now, no jorge, just experiencing. Is the suffering needed? Letting go and just being here now is such a release.
Rishi, master, all meaningless,irrelevant. Warmly, Metta

[Jorge786]

Hi Jorge, Are you working on this? Is there identity in your sight,smell or touch, can you find it anywhere. Or do they just happen? Something good is cooking and the smelling just happens. Metta

No indentity in these things, they just happen
By the way, your statement that something good is cooking, (LOL), I find that my some of my tastes and desires are dictated to some extent by this entity, which are not really "me". Many of them are specific memories of "Jorge".
I also realize that i was looking for from previously known things by me wondering if it will be that or the other, I realize that I can not know what that is, and I'm expecting it to be in one form or another. is something new and is very simple: there is no "Jorge"!, is a fantasy.
Do not want expect anything fantastic or bizarre, just what it always was.
So far was reacting from a perspective of my past, the things that I knew, but now I want to investigate ... see and smell for myself ... lol

[Jorge786]

So you have some expectations of enlightenment, what are they?

I do not want to expect anything extraordinary, I realize that expect something extraordinary is a trick that keeps me in the "wheel"

The ego keeps us wrapped up in illusion. No one is here to be judged or to judge.

I understand, thanks

Intellectualizing is just preventing what is and causing suffering. This is Now, no jorge, just experiencing.

Yes... I must go into the direct experience of what surrounds me, not what the mind says that is

Is the suffering needed? Letting go and just being here now is such a release.
Rishi, master, all meaningless,irrelevant. Warmly, Metta

irrelevant... yes

[Jorge786]

I've been lucubrating or intellectualizing things I read or hear, I have not been experiencing, now I'm going to experiment by myself, I've been behind "Jorge" seeing through their eyes, I want my eyes back!

[Metta777]

Okay, Jorge, you want to end for now? You said about experimenting by yourself. Or do you want to try to continue? :-) Metta

[Jorge786]

Dear Metta

I said it because I realize now that I was not experiencing or "living" directly but through the mind, then now I understand that I must "see" directly. I do not know if I'm explaining correctly.

I mean I'd love to continue and I need it, but would like some days, prob-ably a week to get into this I said "experience reality for myself", and re-think, okay?

Well, I'm in your hands, in a good way, I understand it is my responsibility, but your criteria is better since you've been through the gate (with no door)

best regards
Jorge

[Metta777]

Okay Non-existent Jorge, :-) Give me the direct experience only. Do you find any Jorge, any identity in the direct experience of NOW? Total honesty is a must, no head games. There is no self to experience anything. It is just experiencing, seeing,smelling, hearing, feeling. Events happen, thoughts happen. There is no me,my,mine, nothing. The explanations are fine. When you hear there is no Jorge, that thoughts are just that thoughts and nothing more, what is experienced directly. What feelings come up? Thank you, Warmly, Metta

[Jorge786]

Okay Non-existent Jorge, :-) Give me the direct experience only. Do you find any Jorge, any identity in the direct experience of NOW? Total honesty is a must, no head games.

no, if I make the effort (O.o) to concentrate, meditate, and "observe", then there is no a "indentity" there is no self. but when "back" to the "normal" life, work and social, there is the mind describing, qualifying what I see... and thinking.
is that not "Jorge"?, then "Jorge" is something but not have an identity, so "I" should not exist.

But I do not see this, with the strength which you describe ... or...the strength I am waiting to reach

When you hear there is no Jorge, that thoughts are just that thoughts and nothing more, what is experienced directly. What feelings come up?

Nothing, not feelings, (maybe is a phrase that my mind tried for many years, and having a quick response to that question now taking as mere rhetoric)
Let me reframe the question again ...
... I thinking that "Jorge" exists as something (memories and other things), but should disappear because when "active" causes conflict, anger, and pain, and my feeling is ...This should disappear!, don't want this conflict!
... "Jorge" as an entity does not exist, but it is something that is there.
are thoughts, habits, ways of seeing things, can it disappear?
ANSWER: these things do not disappear but the "idea" that are an entity, yes

thanks Metta

Best regards
Jorge

PD. I think in the past I have received an insufficient dose of "antibiotics" and now ... "Jorge" is tough to die ... lol

[Metta777]

LOL, Jorge. ( anti-biotics. ) There are memories which have occurred because of experience which is no longer reality. Just a story that is repeated. Along with the memories comes feelings, which then makes people feel like they have an " I " But it is seen that when looking at this directly, there is no " I " in the story. All the Identity comes only from a story. All labels come from story, much of the story is what others have said or taught to us. We are taught we have an " I " from very early, so it may be difficult to see. Plus, sometimes there is a little fear from the false I or ego concerning non-existence. Memories will not disappear or feelings and perceptions, but it is seen that this is not you. There is no YOU. We are a process of experiencing only. What we experience becomes memory, but there is no you,only memory. The future is imagined, we think the I will continue to exist, but it is already gone. Death of the body may come at any time, then where is the future? There is only Now and direct experience of what is happening. Then anger,pain, can be dropped. Labels can be dropped, they did not come from ourselves. If someone says, " You are a bad person" How can that be the case?? There is no person, only the experience of now. People put labels and tags onto us and after awhile they can become very heavy and even painful to bear. Because they are believed. But it is all imagined, throw them all away and be free. Can any labels or beliefs about Jorge be seen as coming from outside of experience ? Can Warm Regards, Metta

[Jorge786]

Hi Metta

Can any labels or beliefs about Jorge be seen as coming from outside of experience ?

it's impossible, "experience" is everything

The angry, the pain, the sorrow, the feelings exist, exist in the present, let me explain, if i cut my hand feel pain in that moment (maybe anger for stupid lol), if a familiar dead i feel pain by the knowledge that I will not see that person any more, in that very moment I will feel pain and sorrow, that is real, the cutting, the "lost", and the consequence, angry, sorrow, that feelings not are "me" but exist.
Yesterdey I was angry because I spent more than necessary and then "I charged with the army" on my wife, was a fact, "spending more than necessary," I get angry because I think she does not care (not drama here), there is an "I" in there?, (a enlightened should be more equanimous LOL).
I'm just thinking out loud, i'm thinking so much, all my life was the same, my mind was my treasure, the tool with to deal with the world, that's trouble when this tool become a jail, (¡it's alive! Dr Frankenstein howling at the castle).
Today i made a large and deep "meditation" trying to "find" the "Jorge" existence in there, (expecting nothing), i was able to "hear", "smell" and "feel" without nothing more only the consciousness, and no "Jorge" in there, i don't know if "Jorge" is left me , but I know there is no "Jorge", and don't know why feel sad, maybe i'm unable to see or feel the reality

Thanks by being there, and "listen"... (and "pushing" me... keep going! :-) )
Jorge