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Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:12 pm
by coradad
1. What's the experience from the inside when looking out at the world? Is there any thing left to look out?
I wouldn't describe it as "inside". It feels like I'm a little kid again, like without labelling everything is new. There's nothing looking out it's just noticing going on.
2. If there is, what is the sensation of it? If there isn't, describe the feelings as you move through the world? What's the experience of what's around you? Where do you end? What fills you?
Think I might have to get back to you on this one. Best I can say is noticing is happening.Physically I end at the outer layer of my skin, sensorially I couldn't say. I was out looking at the stars on a clear night last night experiencing their light from who knows how far? What fills me? There is no sense of being "filled" that I'm noticing.
3. Is a cup still a cup? Who's cup is it?
I would say a cup is still a cup but I wouldn't limit it to a preconceived notion of a cup. I just had the experience of looking at the word cup and not knowing what a cup was for a moment, just letters on a screen. Two experiences with the question who's cup is it. One sense of "what does that mean, how can a cup be someone's" and then the recognition that there are cups in my kitchen so I guess you could say they're mine for convenience.
4. What's different now there's no doer, no "Coradad"?
Thoughts and thinking are seen/ experienced as phenomena. I didn't play good golf yesterday and it didn't matter, golfing was happening, being enjoyed with less importance on outcome. I still have the thought that I have to effort noticing the present for there to be no "Coradad" but as that is written it is seen as a silly thought. Noticing happens, Coradad thoughts are noticed and so what.

Thoughts about the future are noticed as "future thoughts" and thoughts about the past are noticed as "past thoughts". Thoughts just are and they are noticed.

Just noticed the time, I have an early tee time today because of yesterday's performance and have to go. Will check in later.

Thanks again for your help :)

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:45 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Coradad,

You mentioned writing a little more about the sensations as you move through the world. Notice what's different now to how it was. I'll wait for the rest before replying.

Best,
John

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:32 pm
by coradad
Hi John,

Very interesting day today so far. The experience so far has been one of "unknowing" I guess to describe it. Like watching (watching not a good descriptive word, noticing better for me) a movie. Noticing thoughts,etc. and wondering what is coming next. Noticing my whole experience unfolding with interest, just open to what will happen next, what thought will happen, what will be noticed, what will my body do. And then actually noticing what my body does without any judgement.

Feeling I would describe as a bit giddy, light, at ease. Not needing to anticipate or "prepare" for what might be next. A feeling of motion, appreciating that things will arise and fall. Noticing longer periods of no thought, just noticing without thought or label. Noticing when labelling happens. More focused attention on what's happening here now. Noticing where attention gets focused.

Still no sense of being "filled" with something as you asked about previously.

Anyway, sure made golf more enjoyable today "watching" what occurred and my score was much better :)

BTW, my name is Ray.

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:56 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Hi Ray,

Nice to meet you. :)
Hi John,

Very interesting day today so far. The experience so far has been one of "unknowing" I guess to describe it. Like watching (watching not a good descriptive word, noticing better for me) a movie. Noticing thoughts,etc. and wondering what is coming next. Noticing my whole experience unfolding with interest, just open to what will happen next, what thought will happen, what will be noticed, what will my body do. And then actually noticing what my body does without any judgement.
Good.
Feeling I would describe as a bit giddy, light, at ease. Not needing to anticipate or "prepare" for what might be next. A feeling of motion, appreciating that things will arise and fall. Noticing longer periods of no thought, just noticing without thought or label. Noticing when labelling happens. More focused attention on what's happening here now. Noticing where attention gets focused.
Good.
Still no sense of being "filled" with something as you asked about previously.
The questions are a mix of things - not always asking what it appears is being asked - only pointers.
Anyway, sure made golf more enjoyable today "watching" what occurred and my score was much better :)
LOL :)

This is going along well Ray. In one of your early posts, you wrote:
But here is where I get stuck and maybe it's only linguistics. Experiencing is happening and in describing another's experience labels the other an experiencer, so there is an experiencer experiencing. If there's a you, there's a me. So is it that there's a you but no self in that you, and a me but no self in that me.
What would be your response now?

With best wishes,
John

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:37 pm
by coradad
I would say that every entity is a different portal of perception. Like a coin has two sides, neither side has the same view of what is happening because of positioning but it's the same coin, it's the same existence being viewed. The view named John is having a different experience than the view named Ray. At any rate, experience is happening and the particular circumstance of experience would only be a label. Experience is, no matter what the "details" are. Some experience could trigger certain reactive conditioning response from memory but that would be specific to the conditioning of the entity experiencing.

Sorry for going into minutiae, it's a trait of my experience.

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:56 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Hi Ray,
I would say that every entity is a different portal of perception. Like a coin has two sides, neither side has the same view of what is happening because of positioning but it's the same coin, it's the same existence being viewed. The view named John is having a different experience than the view named Ray. At any rate, experience is happening and the particular circumstance of experience would only be a label. Experience is, no matter what the "details" are. Some experience could trigger certain reactive conditioning response from memory but that would be specific to the conditioning of the entity experiencing.

Sorry for going into minutiae, it's a trait of my experience.
:)

So, where do you feel you are at?

Do you feel you have clearly seen through the illusion of "Ray"?

How would you describe what you are?

Aside from a half-decent golfer. :)

With best wishes,
John

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:15 am
by coradad
So, where do you feel you are at?
I'm in a very comfortable, stable place that feels like home. Everything feels "invited", experience is and that's great, It's a pleasant, easy, effortless feeling.
Do you feel you have clearly seen through the illusion of "Ray"?
Ray is seen as the story of Ray and I rather enjoy it. All in all it has been mostly a pleasant story to this point and there's a bit of an excited expectation to "read" further.
How would you describe what you are?
What "I" am? Maybe a viewport (if you're familiar with Autocad architectural drawing software). A viewport is a window that allows a view of part of the total complete drawing of a complete construction project. That really rings true to me but if you aren't familiar with how that works it probably doesn't make sense. I recommend if you have any friends who understand AutoCad to show you what this is and I think you'll probably start laughing in recognition.

I have a canine entity that needs attention now and then some social obligations so that's probably it for me tonight. Again my sincere gratitude for your attention and time, I'm actually tearing up thinking about your giving to me. Have a wonderful evening! :)

Ray

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:50 am
by s-p-a-c-e
Hi Ray,

Thank you for the honest and full replies - I even took a glance at a YouTube video on Viewports. :)

Ray, I'd like you to savour each of the questions below and respond fully with all your heart and honesty. They provide a wonderful support to clarity. Please give yourself time to enjoy each question and write what comes up.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.


3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.


4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?


6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?


7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?


10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

With my kind thanks,
John

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:25 pm
by coradad
John, thanks for the questions. I just spent about an hour giving detailed response but I had not been logged in so when I hit save the next screen that popped up notified me that I had to be logged in to reply and lost all that I had written :( Too bad that screen doesn't come up as soon as the reply button is pressed, before one writes.

Anyway, I don't have time to redo it all right now but I wanted to let you know that I read and appreciate your help. I will get back to this probably tonight which might be too late for you today.

Best, Ray

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:09 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Ray,
John, thanks for the questions. I just spent about an hour giving detailed response but I had not been logged in so when I hit save the next screen that popped up notified me that I had to be logged in to reply and lost all that I had written :( Too bad that screen doesn't come up as soon as the reply button is pressed, before one writes.

Anyway, I don't have time to redo it all right now but I wanted to let you know that I read and appreciate your help. I will get back to this probably tonight which might be too late for you today.

Best, Ray
No worries. If you can, forget what you wrote previously, and do it afresh.

With kind thanks,
John

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:56 pm
by coradad
Hi John,

Very, very interesting. I just spent another hour replying to your questions and I know I was logged in. When I finished I clicked on the "preview" button and my entire post was lost and the log-in screen popped up.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I'm still here and you will get a reply. Very interesting from this end because there was a different feeling answering the questions today from yesterday and so I'm curious to see what the feeling will be the next time :) You will get the answers next time because now I've learned to "copy" entire post before I click on anything so if it gets lost I can immediately repost.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get back to it today.

Best,

Ray

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:04 pm
by coradad
LOL, just had the thought about reading something about losing text so I went back to the "New Users Read This" and saw the warning about long posts and not being uncommon to get logged off. Reminds me of an acronym "RTFP" that my draftsman uses on the finished plans for a project. "RTFP" stands for Read The F**king Plans" and is meant as a response to people who complain about something missing or misunderstood and usually the answer is IN THE PLANS! Having a good laugh about this one! Ray

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:10 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Hi Ray,

LOL :D

Keep going... :)

With best wishes,
John

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:38 pm
by coradad
OK John, like the movie "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray here I go again! Redundancy is experienced here :) the interesting thing here is that each time i approach this the feeling is different so the answers are a little different.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
No, there's no "me" or "self" here or anywhere. Nothing can be separate from everything.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The illusion of self is the mis-identification with thoughts and thinking. (Thinking sure is a seductress isn't it?) Thoughts are connected in memory to form an imaginary "I" that imagines it is the experiencer and then tries to exert control. When it starts and how it works would be conjecture on my part, but what I suppose is that when what is labeled uncomfortable or negative energy is experienced (hungry tummy, wet/sore bottom, etc.) and at some point it subsides because of another occurrence (breast appears, diaper changed, warmth from added blanket, etc.) this is stored in memory. After a while, there probably occurs a desire for the relief that has been previously experienced based on memory. Probably once languaging starts, or maybe just the noticing that crying can bring the relief, one begins to associate a sense of control over events. Then the snowball starts rolling getting bigger and bigger.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
At first it felt confusing but after inquiry it was seen. Then a feeling of release of tension replaced with excited energy. Then this changed to a feeling of "ordinariness" as if, well, that's just the way things are. This moment back to excited energy as this "knowing" is noticed in everyday life.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
A little confused about this question because how could there be curiosity about something no known-"never heard about this". I'll answer assuming the somebody is "looking" for answers or relief about life. I would say to them that this gives a sense of clarity simply by shifting perception of who "you" are. That it is very simple, it won't guarantee to change your circumstances, but it will offer the noticing of freedom in their life so that the circumstances won't really matter.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Again, not sure about this question so I'll state my assumption. The first part I'm assuming what is asked is what brought me to LU, what drove my looking. I would say I was looking for Truth and answers about reality. Seeing happened gradually (if you call a few days gradually). First there was the taking in of the ideas presented on the website through the book and reading posts. Then a feeling of "yeah, I can see that it makes sense". Then the answering of your questions in this dialogue pushed me further into deeper inquiry. When I really started to feel I "grocked" it was when life started to be experienced or noticed as almost like a movie. The feeling of identification dissolved and a curiosity about what thought was going to appear next and what action will this character Ray do and what is going to happen anywhere next occurred. A feeling of "un-knowing" is experienced in a comfortable, relaxed, and curiously excited way. Appropriately I was golfing at the time.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
Depends on context and what is trying to be communicated. "I" can be used to label the illusory "I" of misidentification with thought in one context, but as used in "my" answering here, "I" points to the experiencing happening as perceived by the carbon life form named Ray.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
There is only experience. Experiencer indicates ownership or a "doer". Experiencing happens.
8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
"Belong to" intimates ownership again and there can be no ownership. If I had to choose between the two statements I would say the body belongs to experience is more truthy (apologies to Steven Colbert from Comedy Central).
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
My assumption is that you are asking what my experience was when I lost identification with the thought of "me" and saw how that came about. As stated previously there was release of tension felt, a feeling of home, a freedom from false responsibility and a curious excitement about the feeling of this new perch of perception.
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
There is a noticing of loss of meaning about things, a sense of life flowing in motion. Noticing more and more that this is truth and sensing that it is being seen at deeper and deeper levels. At this moment a feeling of lightness. Also noticing that there is a lack of effort, things still get done but they get done because it is notice that they should be done. Excited about this. Noticing thoughts are more about now as opposed to past or future events or imagined events. A feeling of compassion with the sense that awareness is everywhere and the awareness being experienced here is not more special than any other awareness happening. Realization is ongoing and being noticed.

Hope this one gets to you John :) !!!!

Again, very grateful for your time and attention.

Best, Ray

Re: Grateful for some help please

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:22 am
by s-p-a-c-e
Hi Ray,

Hur-ray! :) It came through. Thank you for the comprehensive responses.

I'm going to ask the other guides to have a read through and add their further comments and questions - so watch this space!

With my kind thanks,
John