Desperately Seeking Freedom

[zenkitties]

Good morning Nick,

Again, thanks for hanging on in here. And thanks for the link. I will read it today..

And to you good afternoon Susan!

Or isn't there another one about a noise in a forest - is there a noise if there's noone to hear it? How can sound happen with no hearer/witness? Can you help me unstick this. I will investigate whether I'm there in the senses today.

There is never anyone there to hear it, so if that helps haha. There is just hearing taking place. Seeing and hearing also aren't linked in any continuitious way. So of course there is noise in the forest, because there is always no one to hear it.

I got in touch with some fear about loss of me this morning. I'm trying to see what's stopping true seeing, apart from the fact that this feels like hard work and I have a lazy nature!

Actually you aren't exhibiting a lazy nature at all. There is a story of laziness, but you've come farther than many people would ever want to down this rabbit hole so you're far from "lazy". who's the one saying you're lazy or who is the lazy one, what is saying that?

There is fear of the loss of the I that I (???!!!) am so attached to. There's two of me now! Double the work. Ha ha. Yes some sadness arising now.

I'm sure there seems to be a lot more than just two of you! however none of those two (or ten thousand) are real. All imaginary.

Can you just put me out of my misery - chop off my head or something?

*lightly karate chops you on the neck* :)

JUst one last thing - if I see I don't exist, will I disappear or just be seen through?

this is just a permission slip to yourself giving yourself permission to see this but you will not disappear. You were never there to begin with. Yes it will be seen through.

Okay I'll get back to you later today hopefully with my head chopped off.

Good Luck!

[Susan]

Thanks for your encouragement.

Please say more about identification as a witness. What knows a cow had mooed? Or is it just 'coincidental' happenings, a cow moos, a thought arises of a cow mooing, thought gives it labels as if I know that a cow has mooed. There seems to be some continuity in cows mooing and the labels thought gives of cow and moo. This is an illusion huh? Is that kind of it?

[Susan]

SUSAN KNOWS NOTHING!!!! She still exists (apologies for that) but knows nothing. So her head is still firmly on but she's had her brain removed instead!!!!

Momentarily on the dog walk it was clear that when a cow moos, Susan doesn't know that a cow moos. Thoughts of a cow mooing arise. Oddly, other people have the same thoughts or not (esp, if they are Spanish or Russian etc).Either way, these thoughts are meaningless and know nothing. So if I know nothing I'm not much of a witness. So what is me holding onto now - its still there. Tenacious. Yes, that's just a thought.

So I'm not lazy. Thoughts of laziness arise and days of wanting to do little arise from time to time. I can't know I'm lazy anyway.

Thanks for the link to that great website. The suffering article resonated with me. On my return from a trip to India to see a Swami in a lovely little ashram in the foothills of the Himalayas in April, I started to spontaneously do prostrations, getting down on my knees with forehead on the ground, saying a prayer 'Thy will not my will be done''. Since then, at any time when I noticed any sort of suffering I would prostrate and surrender my will. It is such a powerful practice for me and seems in some ways similar to some of the points in the article. It certainly allows me to be with more and more suffering and surrender into it. Beautiful.

Back to investigating what I am if I'm not the knower of experience...

[zenkitties]

Thanks for your encouragement.

Oh but of course, I just show you what you already have. Those qualities you already are, and you will see this. I promise. (of course, its obvious not you "your" time.)

What knows a cow had mooed?

Well I will just say this. when the label of cow moo, it is just a thought finding a reason for why a sound is heard. It has nothing to do what is actually happening. A sound is heard, a cow is labeled a cow is seen, so the brain links the two together and says, "oh this is happening." However if you do an experiment with a bell or a singing bowl for instance.

The bell rings, but is the bell ringing or is the ring heard and then thought makes a story about it? Can you find the bell in the sound is the question. Is it there, if you closed your eyes. could you find the bell within the sound. (mental sensations or visions and thoughts are seperate then there actually being a bell in the sound.)

So in this sense you can now answer the cow question. Is there a cow in the sound of a moo?

SUSAN KNOWS NOTHING!!!! She still exists (apologies for that) but knows nothing. So her head is still firmly on but she's had her brain removed instead!!!!

No need to be sorry, Susan exists just as much as Nick exists, the personalities work really well in conventional reality.

Just see through that fact that Susan is nothing more then a lot of small sensations all going on in fast in and out of phasing of existence. (five sense doors)

Momentarily on the dog walk it was clear that when a cow moos, Susan doesn't know that a cow moos. Thoughts of a cow mooing arise. Oddly, other people have the same thoughts or not (esp, if they are Spanish or Russian etc).Either way, these thoughts are meaningless and know nothing. So if I know nothing I'm not much of a witness. So what is me holding onto now - its still there. Tenacious. Yes, that's just a thought.

Yes exactly. There is no meaning behind the content, they are empty in content. They are given power depending on how firmly they are focused on or not. If they are not focused on they move on, if focused they become part of a "personality".

So I'm not lazy. Thoughts of laziness arise and days of wanting to do little arise from time to time. I can't know I'm lazy anyway.

Exactly, laziness can happen, and desire to do little may happen. (or not) two valid areas to be in, there isn't a right or wrong in this. What one may see as being correct, another may see and being completely incorrect. Just as I'm sure some may see how my perception seems like someone of an insane nature, where as another may say im clear sighted in what is seen. Again all empty in nature. that's part of what duality is, the two aren't separate, just two sides of the same coin.

Thanks for the link to that great website. The suffering article resonated with me. On my return from a trip to India to see a Swami in a lovely little ashram in the foothills of the Himalayas in April, I started to spontaneously do prostrations, getting down on my knees with forehead on the ground, saying a prayer 'Thy will not my will be done''. Since then, at any time when I noticed any sort of suffering I would prostrate and surrender my will. It is such a powerful practice for me and seems in some ways similar to some of the points in the article. It certainly allows me to be with more and more suffering and surrender into it. Beautiful.

That's very beautiful, and I'm glad that the article was of some use to you. And finally yes back to the investigation. Really get the sense of how there is no you there despite these ideas, beliefs, and sensations all going on. This is where you see that there truly is no separation. All this is happening right here, right now, all from the same source.

That there is no separation between what you are and what the source of all this activity going on.

[Susan]

There's no cow in the sound of mooing and there is no bell in the sound of ringing. It's thoughts connecting it all up into a lovely story.

These daily interactions seem to be really helpful. Help to keep up some intensity in the enquiry. Without them I'd give up for sure (or giving up would happen).

That last sentence of yours saying I'm not separate from the source, connects with the 'I am' thing doesn't it? Because when I read it, there is a feeling of relief. I think I'm scared to jump into emptiness or nothing but I like the idea of being the source, the I am, aliveness, awareness and yes, they're all concepts and thoughts and ideas arising. So I will try to stick with the sense of no me other than ideas, beliefs, sensations. I am the source is just another idea but gives a 'positive' sense of expansion. I am nothing is also only an idea but gives a 'negative' sense of death, jumping off a cliff with no safe landing.

[zenkitties]

There's no cow in the sound of mooing and there is no bell in the sound of ringing. It's thoughts connecting it all up into a lovely story.

Exactly. They are all empty and of themselves, which is why it is referred to as emptiness because just like a cow is empty of any meaning, so are you. So is everything else, it doesn't mean worthlessness, it just means that the definitions that have been applied to everything don't actually apply at all. The mind will not be able to ever put a handle on it.

These daily interactions seem to be really helpful. Help to keep up some intensity in the enquiry. Without them I'd give up for sure (or giving up would happen).

I'm glad that you are finding them helpful. They don't just help you, they also help me as well! So thank you for being such a great teacher. :)

That last sentence of yours saying I'm not separate from the source, connects with the 'I am' thing doesn't it? Because when I read it, there is a feeling of relief. I think I'm scared to jump into emptiness or nothing but I like the idea of being the source, the I am, aliveness, awareness and yes, they're all concepts and thoughts and ideas arising. So I will try to stick with the sense of no me other than ideas, beliefs, sensations. I am the source is just another idea but gives a 'positive' sense of expansion. I am nothing is also only an idea but gives a 'negative' sense of death, jumping off a cliff with no safe landing.

Yes and no. they are both equally true. It is both nothing and everything at the same time. What gives the idea that death has to be negative or the sense of. Try and pull out the belief that says that and see if it is actually negative. If there is no you here that ever existed. What is actually dying, is there even death? You aren't the body, so when the body goes, that will mean nothing.

Also taken from Seneca of Stoicism, he put it very beautiful when he said, "Death is nothing but the same as before you were born. If you suffered, you do not remember so it doesn't matter. so when you die, there will be no remembering of death."

I am nothing is also only an idea but gives a 'negative' sense of death, jumping off a cliff with no safe landing.

This is clear seeing, there really is no safe landing. There is just a falling, there is no bottom at all haha. It's okay though, there is no you ever to begin with, so there is no you to end.

Yes I Amness, is nice to see, it brings much comfort but don't get hung up in the comfort of it as one could get stuck here. So I encourage you to keep inquiring and seeing how you don't exist in experience. Everything else obviously does but it is those things that are popping in and out of existence which gives the appearance of things existing.

Can't wait to hear from you again today Susan! :)

[Susan]

Yes I Amness, is nice to see, it brings much comfort but don't get hung up in the comfort of it as one could get stuck here. So I encourage you to keep inquiring and seeing how you don't exist in experience. Everything else obviously does but it is those things that are popping in and out of existence which gives the appearance of things existing.

Yes, I'm getting stuck in I Amness, nice and cosy there! And not got much to say today. Have been keeping busy, distracting myself from this enquiry. But your words are resonating. Am off for rest of the day seeing my in-laws. Will try to get back on track enquiring into my existence and getting courage to jump off the cliff during this visit - I'll leave my hubbie to do the talking for once! May not have chance to get back to you until the morning but inspired by your last post. Much gratitude, as always.

[zenkitties]

Yes, I'm getting stuck in I Amness, nice and cosy there! And not got much to say today. Have been keeping busy, distracting myself from this enquiry. But your words are resonating. Am off for rest of the day seeing my in-laws. Will try to get back on track enquiring into my existence and getting courage to jump off the cliff during this visit - I'll leave my hubbie to do the talking for once! May not have chance to get back to you until the morning but inspired by your last post. Much gratitude, as always.

It is, and you can always get back to it because you'll see both the Void and this I Amness are the same thing once you see. Jumping off into nothing is just seeing that you are that nothing to begin with haha. so that of the jumper and the nothing are not separate there is nothing to worry about.

The mind will create a different kind of story as I'm sure has been directly experience, about death. But look closely at experience as well. This death happens from moment to moment without the realization that it is happening. You are literally not the same person from moment to moment. Death and Rebirth.

Glad to see the resonation, stay with it miss! You gotta do what you gotta do, just be mindful and love them as best at you know how, I'm sure you'll have no problems with that! :)

[Susan]

Just a quick reply on my return. I walked my dog through a cemetry this afternoon where my in-laws live and found the whole idea of burying 'people', with gravestones to mark the place of burial, so peculiar. I can't quite explain why, except that it felt like such a joke that we all take ourselves so seriously. I'm not laughing at the suffering people feel when they lose a loved one, just the whole idea of taking death so seriously perhaps. I have never had this reaction before so something must be shifting!

[zenkitties]

I can't quite explain why, except that it felt like such a joke that we all take ourselves so seriously. I'm not laughing at the suffering people feel when they lose a loved one, just the whole idea of taking death so seriously perhaps. I have never had this reaction before so something must be shifting!

The shift has already happened, the mind and body are just catching up. Keep going Susan! :) You've got a lot of good momentum there.

How do you feel at the moment with this perceptual shift? How is it different would you say then how it was before you started in on the inquiry?

Keep at the inquiry by the way, the more you knock on the door, the more it opens.

Or the more you will see that the gateless gate is YOU!

there is no gate, you have been the hindrance, just by seeing you are not there, the gate as ALWAYS always ALWAYS been open. Just seeing it allows you to see it was never locked nor was there ever a gate and to step beyond it. :)

[Susan]

The shift has already happened you say! Doesn't yet feel like a solid shift, apart from seeing things as subtly different than before - so not taking things so seriously or myself so seriously but still getting dragged into some stuff more than other stuff and by some people more than others, I notice. Otherwise I cannot pinpoint any difference. Oh except for feeling in the flow of life with joy arising (but that happens from time to time with me, doesn't feel permanent). I still refer to me but perhaps with less intensity generally.

What am I expecting to happen now when my non existence is completely seen? I can feel now that it will be such a subtle shift that it could almost be missed - is that true? Or will it be more obvious? I hope it will feel more permanent and stable than the sense of I have of the shift that has occured which feels fragile and weak and in need of alot of care in order to take hold, like a young green shoot making its way into daylight from the depths of the soil.

I am the gate and the gate is gateless. Ha ha.

[Susan]

Okay a big test. Synchronicity - an old situation with my husband has come up in a particularly intense way and feels personal. Its like my little shift is being tested. Anyway, I've failed the test: I feel like I've let him/us down and feel deeply sad and sorry about that. He's suffering, and I feel his suffering. I'm not sure I can change the situation now - it may be too late. So there we are, there's nothing impersonal about this in terms of how its feels and I'm looking to see if 'I' can make the situation better and 'I' feel very bad about it.

Is there any hope.

I continue with the enquiry, particularly on the dog walk but not much to report today. Just felt less of a sense of me (until the event I have described above)!

[zenkitties]

The shift has already happened you say! Doesn't yet feel like a solid shift, apart from seeing things as subtly different than before - so not taking things so seriously or myself so seriously but still getting dragged into some stuff more than other stuff and by some people more than others, I notice. Otherwise I cannot pinpoint any difference. Oh except for feeling in the flow of life with joy arising (but that happens from time to time with me, doesn't feel permanent). I still refer to me but perhaps with less intensity generally.

Haha but Susan, you have three pages worth of difference that have been happening for some time now. Not always does a shift have fireworks. This is an awakening, not a total liberation from suffering. It is all inclusive, you will feel the positive emotions as well as the "negatives" more strongly. This may give a feeling with more in touch with life as some may put it.

Focus on the not taking things so seriously. As there is no one there to be serious, the content just arises, but the energy is beautiful and is a representative of what is actually arising. The story only makes the "reasons" why the certain energy comes up.

Keep seeing there being no you. I definitely see a shift, however like I said, the body/mind has to do some catching up, so please keep up your momentum!

What am I expecting to happen now when my non existence is completely seen? I can feel now that it will be such a subtle shift that it could almost be missed - is that true? Or will it be more obvious? I hope it will feel more permanent and stable than the sense of I have of the shift that has occured which feels fragile and weak and in need of alot of care in order to take hold, like a young green shoot making its way into daylight from the depths of the soil.

Good Question! What are you expecting? It would be worth contemplating. Yes the shift can be missed, you could be awake and not even know this, I've heard of this happening. It is very subtle almost like the subtly of a lightswitch going from dim to brighter. Just a small amount but enough to notice. Or maybe a better example would be an oven going from level 6 to 7. However don't let such a seemingly "little" shift fool you.

I like your example of a baby shoot growing through soil. Isn't this how life typically is in general? A seed has the blueprint of the tree just like the perceptual shift has the blue print to the I Am or the No-Self. It is a very precious seedling! So keep looking for a you in everyday experience. (not the story but an actual you)

Okay a big test. Synchronicity - an old situation with my husband has come up in a particularly intense way and feels personal. Its like my little shift is being tested. Anyway, I've failed the test: I feel like I've let him/us down and feel deeply sad and sorry about that. He's suffering, and I feel his suffering. I'm not sure I can change the situation now - it may be too late. So there we are, there's nothing impersonal about this in terms of how its feels and I'm looking to see if 'I' can make the situation better and 'I' feel very bad about it.

Well I am in no place to give you personal advice on your relationship with your husband, but there is always things that can be learned from our situations that we've put ourselves in. This is another learning experience for you whether its you seeing how and why it happened the way it did. Or maybe showing you to check the beliefs you have about something. You say, "I feel I've let him down." Is that so? What about the situation makes you feel that way and why? What belief is stirring that inside you.

Accept you feel this way and tell yourself its okay and thank that feeling for coming up. Its there specifically to show you something about yourself you aren't putting compassion and attention on.

It feels personal because just like you he is also no-one and everything, he is not separate just like you are not separate. Of course its personal! It's a love story of you to you! Silly girl.

From my experience, (which isn't much) but each situation is different for each person. So what may be right for you at this moment, may not be right down the road. You have to really give some consideration about what is best for not only you but for him. Don't make a decision to "make others happy over yourself." What is that going to do for him and what is that going to do for you, How would that benefit you in any way? We only suffer as long as we allow ourselves to do so. And we can either learn from that potential or not learn from it. That isn't in your control.
By the way this is an ego question or a story question so this actually doesn't have anything to do with no-self seeing, (I'm answering you on a Nick morality side of things). So take that advice like the smallest grain of sand. There may be some things you can use and others if they do not resonate, to throw out.

You'll know which ones to keep and throw out as of course they will resonate with how you currently feel.

This is Reality asking you, "okay i'm puting you back here, do you really want this new reality that's been created?"

[Susan]

I wasn't expecting relationship advise but you did hit some nails on some heads, so thanks for this additional service!

My last post was just to illustrate how quickly I got pulled back into the story after, as you say, a few days of progress. The effect of it knocked me for six, given what I had been reporting to you a few hours earlier in the cemetry - i thought I was cracking it. But its back to the drawing board and I am definitely not giving up on this. I want to see it through to the end and give this seedling every chance of growing into a beautiful tree. Thank God for dog walking!

The issue coming up with my dear hubbie is an old, old part of my conditioning knocking on the door to remind me it still needs 'compassion and attention'. When I said how personal it felt, it was because many people in the Gateless book describe their awakening in terms of being impersonal. So I was so surprised how personal it has felt over the last 24 hours.

I guess I expect to feel more detached as a result of this work. But as you say life can touch you more deeply. Ok back to the enquiry after a day of getting stuck in a whirlpool - did you know that the way out of a whirlpool is it into the centre of it? The force pulls you under and kind of spits you out of its reach. Takes courage but is true of this work too perhaps?

[Susan]

Okay, today is a new day. I know - every moment is a new moment (I kind of get that). I had a dream last night which confirmed some very old beliefs at work in the whirlpool of identification in which I found myself yesterday. Are the older beliefs and conditioning patterns the hardest to see through? I guess so. Is that why Ram Dass says 'if you think you're enlightened, spend a week with your parents'? Ha ha.

Anyway, then I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers this morning and there was the realisation that the suffering was all because of the identification with the story. 'I had let my husband down' and it was 'my fault', so 'I should try to put it right somehow' etc etc. Such shame and pressure. If I could have seen at the time that old conditioning was arising and playing out and events happened that led to the issue yesterday which I didn't cause (just this mind body organism making a conditioned response to events), the sense of personally failing and needing to make up for my failures, need not have arisen. Wayne Liqourman says wherever there is shame or pride, there is an opportunity to investigate the idenitification with a personal doer.

The experience was certainly humbling in terms of how far I've come with seeing through the thoughts of the existence of I. So, I would like to get back now to the focussed work of seeing if I can find myself in any experience. I will be away at my mothers from late this afternoon until tomorrow evening and have no internet access there. So do not be concerned when you do not hear from me tomorrow. Dog walking will still be happening and so will self-enquiry!