Laurens this is for you :)

[lcurteis]

It is the illusiory story of this individual that doesnt like the dropping back into re-identification. Always looking for something wrong...it can't accept that this IS..

Thats a good question...whats needed for the stability to appear? It seems as if it is something outside this individuals power. It just happens sometimes and doesnt other times. But then the mind can kind of track back a story usually that seemingly created it or didnt. Contributing factors etc. But these are just stories that work me up and give the mind something to do.

With thanks
Laurens

[dreamer]

Wanting stability in seeing, is a want of things to be different than they are. Things can never be any different from what they are in the moment.

What is it that wants?

Vivi

[dreamer]

It is the illusiory story of this individual that doesnt like the dropping back into re-identification. Always looking for something wrong...it can't accept that this IS

Of cause it can't :) The story is what keeps the illusion of an individual going. Accepting that it is an illusion seems to make the illusionary individual disappear, die. Even illusions do not want to die, it seems :)

So this is what is at the moment, an illusion that doesn't want to die.....Ha, ha how funny :)

What do you feel about this?

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
Apolagies for the slow reply, I found myself yesterday with nothing to say so coming back to it today. There is still confusion with 'illusion' I can't quite form it into a question though. It could just be to do with the word and how I interpret it. Actually it might be because I am looking for the opposite of illusion coming from the same level as illusion..I can understand how this personal self is illusory but then whats the other side of illusion? Reality right? But I can't quantify this..like I can illusion.
Do you understand what im trying to say?

Thankyou
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

Illusion is just a word, just a label, just a thought. Nothing.

Let me rephrase, first your sentence (partly):
It is the illusiory story of this individual that doesnt like the dropping back into re-identification. Always looking for something wrong...it can't accept that this IS

Then mine:
It is the thought story of this individual that doesn't like the dropping back into re-identification.

The story is just thoughts that keeps the though of an individual going. Accepting that it is a thought seems to make the thought of an individual disappear. die. Even thoughts do not want to die, it seems.

This seems to be what is at the moment a thought that doesn't want to die.

Does this make sense to you?

Best regards Vivi

[dreamer]

Sorry the edition went wrong, here is the correct lay-out:

Illusion is just a word, just a label, just a thought. Nothing.

Let me rephrase, first your sentence (partly):

It is the illusiory story of this individual that doesnt like the dropping back into re-identification. Always looking for something wrong...it can't accept that this IS

It is the thought story of this individual that doesn't like the dropping back into re-identification.

Then mine:

The story is what keeps the illusion of an individual going. Accepting that it is an illusion seems to make the illusionary individual disappear, die. Even illusions do not want to die, it seems :)

So this is what is at the moment, an illusion that doesn't want to die

The story is just thoughts that keeps the though of an individual going. Accepting that it is a thought seems to make the thought of an individual disappear. die. Even thoughts do not want to die, it seems.

This seems to be what is at the moment a thought that doesn't want to die.

Does this make sense to you?

Best regards Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
Yes that does make sense to me, and I can see it playing out... I guess this 'I' is looking for something else to jump too, before jumping ship completely. Something different than this... I can see this as futile.
Thanks
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

Good!

Look into who ARE the thinker of thoughts.

Ahoy abandon ship!

Warm regards Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
Im going to stick with the the 'who is the thinker of thoughts' for a few days as anything else that comes up just seems to be going around in circles...feel like I'm chasing my own tail a bit.
With gratitude
Laurens

[dreamer]

OK :)

[dreamer]

Laurens, you have said a couple of times, that it seems to go in circles. Look carefully, when you look.
Are the direct experience disturbed by thoughts? Often dressed as questions like this: 'how can I know there are no I, even if I can find it - or - what if I am missing something.

Greetings Vivi

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
I think the going around in circles feeling is a certain type of experience (in this case an effort to escape the feeling of being in a pit, then the sliding back into a pit.) that re-occurs. I know (logically) this is just a phenomena but the last 4-5 days it has been very real and testing. This experience seems to be so closely linked to thoughts that I can't distinguish whether thoughts disturb experience or not, its all just one big cloudy experience. I feel so caught up in it that any effort to get some fresh air or clarity only intensifies the suffering.
One step forward two steps back..
Thankyou for your time Vivi it is very much appreciated.
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

Are there any fears that you are aware of, concerning 'I do not exist'. Seemingly going in circles, can be seen as thoughts trying to protect 'you' from 'disappearing/dying' by seeing through the I thought.

What comes up reading this.

Greetings Vivi

By the way:
There are no stepping forwards or backwards. All there ever are, is now. It only seems like a stepping.

[lcurteis]

Hi Vivi,
There is definatly some fear around that topic. The way it plays out (as far as I can see) is the fear of going crazy, losing whatever sanity holds this here together. Some background info might be relevant here and that is that a friend of mine about two years ago got admitted to a mental hospital and two days later he committed suicide. I didnt see him in this short space of time but he seemingly went from being a 'well held together person to that in about a month'.
Sitting here now experiencing this... feeling it. I can't conceptualize this fear but it is uncomfortable, suffocating. There is some grounding here in the sensations of the cold air on my skin and the sound of the laptop. Feels like thin ice though..
With thanks
Laurens

[dreamer]

Hi Laurens

First of all fears are thoughts. In this case thoughts of going crazy. Thoughts supported by a story, that makes 'you' believe that it is possible to go crazy 'out of the blue'. Do you, in direct experience, at the moment, see anybody going crazy, do you see the fear of going crazy, in direct experience?

What do you see when you look?

Warm regards Vivi