Looking for guidance

[odemira]

Hi William,

But we're here to take the trash out right?

Yes, the more we clear out here, the better!

By who won't they be believed anymore? And who sees through the illusion?

If I used to believe in Santa Claus, and then one day find out he's not real, it can still happen that a thought arises 'I wonder what Santa will bring me for Christmas?' and then another thought arises 'Oh, it's not Santa, it's my father dressed up.' Thoughts just arise, to no-one. No-one sees through the illusion, it's just a belief that falls away once it's seen through. By no-one. All just happening automatically, no 'you' experiencing it. Can you find a William that is experiencing?

It is undeniable that there is awareness. There is an undeniable knowing of being alive

Yes, there is awareness, life is being lived. But does it need a William for that to happen? Is it being experienced by William? The mind's job is to identify, to label things, so it's saying Ok, I'm not William, so maybe I'm awareness? No, you're not. You don't exist. Never have done either ;)

there is life seeing and being aware of itself.

Yes - but again, can you see the labelling of experience going on in your thoughts? Go for a walk in the park or in nature, and look around you. Do the trees and the birds label experience? Does a leaf say 'I'm a leaf'?

the mind is still coping with old habits which ask for observation.

Sure, and this continues. Once you've 'passed through the gateless gate', there's aftercare groups on Facebook where we support each other with this 'deconditioning'.

Am looking forward to your reports on your separation observations,

Happy looking
with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Look back a page! you missed a few posts which I just posted before you came in :)

[odemira]

William :))

I almost can't believe that the truth is so radically different from what was thought for almost 26 years.

So has the shift happened, have you SEEN through the illusion of a self?

If so when and how did that happen?

Are you ready for our final questions, or is there more clearing away to be done?

with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Hey Odemira :)

A few days ago, as I reported, a shift happened. William was suddenly realized to be a construct of the mind, projected upon the experience of life. It was seen that life happens by itself and that there is no William necessary for life to happen.

However, there is a doubt. You just asked me if I have SEEN through the illusion of a self and with all honesty, I think I would at this point describe it as an unbreakable BELIEF which forms the fundament for a possibility to clearly see.
I think it is better to be 100% sure before we go on to the final question and I'm curious if you can take a conclusion by reading this. Would you say that when this is SEEN, that, despite old habits coming back, I thoughts, etc, 'someone' would be still a 100% sure that it is done?

Let's put it like this.. Right now at this point.. Thoughts, emotions, whatever happens is being acknowledged as life happening and the mind is just doing it's ordinary things. It's not seen as a sort of enemy anymore, it's lost a lot of it's pull and momentum. It's smiled at frequently throughout the day when making up stories and is left for what it is.
And sometimes when it's not, it is then again, left for what is is.

There is not a real reason I can think of why I would say there is only BELIEF and not the SEEING of it. Maybe that thought itself is standing in the way.
There is a possibility that the imaginary self is holding on with one hand on the edge of the cliff and I think, Odemira, that we want to be sure about having it let go before taking the next step, right?

This could even have to do with the expectations I had. Don't know, you be the judge now Odemira!

Hug, William :)

[Spacefrog]

I mean Odemira..

There's just thoughts arising that say things like..
This can't be it? It can't be THIS simple?!
Couldn't even call it disappionting because an increidible weight seems to be falling of gradually but
the mind just seems to expect fireworks.
Besides that it's very very clear that this is all automatic and there was never anyone here. It was all a beautiful, charming and vert convincing illusion. Which continues, like a lucid dream.

[odemira]

Hi William,

I would at this point describe it as an unbreakable BELIEF which forms the fundament for a possibility to clearly see. I think it is better to be 100% sure before we go on to the final question

I agree with you. More looking needed!

Let's look at separation. In English we use subject & verb & object. So "I see a tree". But you now realise that 'I' is an illusion, so is redundant. What's left is "seeing a tree". But is there a separation between the seeing and the tree? Same with 'hearing sound' - is there a separation? This is like the old question, if a tree falls in a huge forest and noone hears it, does it make a sound? Same with everything sensed - is there really any separation? If there's not a 'you' in your head looking out at the world, is there really an 'in' and an 'out'?

Check this all out for yourself, and notice what happens.

It's also good to get out in nature, and just observe, look for the non-separation, the interconnectness of life.

Happy looking!
with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Good morning Odemira,

Ok so let's continue.

Every instant is a rich blend of is-ness. Life presenting itself. As soon as I get to the point of trying to describe this moment any further, there is the realization that that is what seemingly separates the whole. While in fact, what's happening is that the whole presents itself including the labeling mind. There is unlimited possibilities for a moment to present itself and any thought trying to describe it is just existing IN this event.

The mind at this point is convinced that it is looking through a prism.
However there is an aching, a longing by the mind to dissolve into the whole, to experience it more clearly.
It is representing 2 sides of a debate at the moment. It is at the same time describing what was just wrote and on the other hand doubting itself asking what the difference is between SEEING and BELIEVING.
Many 'people' come here and tell they have an intellectual understanding of this. I had too when I came here. Something has definitely gone much deeper then, but I wonder if what's gone deeper is the understanding of it OR the direct experience of it.

What if there is a complete understanding of this, what is left to be done? Just applying that and keep observing until the perspective CLEARLY shifts?

[Spacefrog]

The mind at this point is convinced that it is looking through a prism.

Rephrase, the mind at this point is convinced that it functions as a prism.

[odemira]

Good afternoon William!

Every instant is a rich blend of is-ness. Life presenting itself. As soon as I get to the point of trying to describe this moment any further, there is the realization that that is what seemingly separates the whole. While in fact, what's happening is that the whole presents itself including the labeling mind. There is unlimited possibilities for a moment to present itself and any thought trying to describe it is just existing IN this event.

Yes indeed. Nice phrase, 'every instant is a rich blend of is-ness' - I may well borrow that one! And there's full clarity being expressed here.

And then in the next paragraph - your mind starts talking - all its opinions about prisms, longings, 2 sides of a debate, etc etc. All just thoughts, intellectualisations, all taking you away from directly SEEING the reality of "every instant is a rich blend of is-ness".

My role here is not to debate concepts with you, but to point you where to LOOK. So let me repost what I asked you to look at.

Let's look at separation. In English we use subject & verb & object. So "I see a tree". But you now realise that 'I' is an illusion, so is redundant. What's left is "seeing a tree". But is there a separation between the seeing and the tree? Same with 'hearing sound' - is there a separation? This is like the old question, if a tree falls in a huge forest and noone hears it, does it make a sound? Same with everything sensed - is there really any separation? If there's not a 'you' in your head looking out at the world, is there really an 'in' and an 'out'? Check this all out for yourself, and notice what happens.

Let me know what you SEE.

with love
Odemira

[Spacefrog]

Hey Odemira :)

Yes, the mind is still playing tricks on itself. Let's look into the observation.

Let's look at separation. In English we use subject & verb & object. So "I see a tree". But you now realise that 'I' is an illusion, so is redundant. What's left is "seeing a tree".

Clear.

But is there a separation between the seeing and the tree?

In THIS moment, nothing is separated. There is nothing where anything could be separated from. If it would be separated from THIS, it wouldn't exist. Incompatible with life.

The hard part right now, is to approach it from the side of that old question.
It might say the very same thing but it's very hard for the mind to believe that if no one sees the tree, that it doesn't exist.

Same with everything sensed - is there really any separation? If there's not a 'you' in your head looking out at the world, is there really an 'in' and an 'out'?

Then everything is taking place WITHIN the experience and is the experience itself. 'I' turn out to be a story made up by the mind and so there is no-one left to be 'in control'. 'The entity' was thought to be the subject but is an object (thought) IN the experience.

And still it feels too much like an intellectual understanding. It is COMPLETELY logical, more than ever, but I think the only way to uproot this is to get more lab results by observing.
Working on it full-time Odemira.

There are moments where this feels like the actual experience and there are moments when doubt kicks in. I KNOW that this is the mind chatting but it's probably important to know for you that that's what happening.
For some reason this thought is believed. And that reason is probably legit, because when this is SEEN, the doubt dissolves..right? (Odemira might get angry now) ;P

Back on lab duties.. More soon.

Love, William

[Spacefrog]

For some reason this thought is believed

The reason is probably simply because it isn't SEEN clearly yet.

[Spacefrog]

Everything is part of one big seamless event that isn't ever interrupted nor it is split up, nor anything could be detached from it. This is clear here.
Everything appears inside this event. The looking, the thoughts, the 'outside' world and so on.
Looking from this perspective, there is no separation. The illusion of separation is due to memory which tells a story. But the story is always told in this moment, coloring up the experience.

The story being told of the illusion of William the individual tells that it hasn't dissolved completely yet and that this all is yet to be seen more clearly. It is clear that this is just appearing in the experience, but just isn't let go of completely.

[Spacefrog]

Hey Odemira,

Think what happened last week was definitely a deepening understanding, maybe even a glimpse, but it didn't last.
Feels a bit like a false start, but I know that it's important to not go there and to just keep LOOKING and investigating.

[Spacefrog]

Think what happened last week

Odd thing now is that I realize at the same time that what is thinking is just thinking, the same thinking that is making up William. But a scientist could conclude this and still not experience it that way.

[Spacefrog]

Small update.. Things that come to mind.

At moments, life feels more real. I feel, and yes, there's a part that needs more work, more connected to life. Spacious. Like described before. No inside and outside. Taking a warm bath in the now.
All the ideas, fears, doubts, beliefs just floating around in that space.
Looking is looking at a mind trying to checkmate itself and going in circles. Sometimes it's just being laughed at. And sometimes it creeps up on itself. Thought upon thought upon thought.