Hi Chris,
Here are the final questions, please answer them at length.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
with love
Odemira
Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Hi Odemira
Just to let you know that I have seen the questions but just not had the time today to respond as yet.
Chris
Just to let you know that I have seen the questions but just not had the time today to respond as yet.
Chris
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Hi Odemira
I hope this meets with your requirements as I haven’t had a great deal of time to work on it.
1) There is no ‘me’ in any way shape or form. There isn’t now, nor was there ever, anyone who personally lived this life known as Chris’ life. All there is is experience of life living in all its glory. There is nothing that is separate from anything else. There is seeing and hearing - sights, sounds, colours, shapes, movement and stillness happening in a non-local, localised space where all these things that were seen as ‘out there’ and ‘in here’ meet as one.
There is a feedback loop whereby these experiences are recognised within an apparent person as an individual experiencer and that feedback is in tandem with the conditioning and programming of that feedback unit (person). The awareness that is apparent is not a ‘me’ who is aware but life experiencing itself as life. By taking away the idea of an ‘I’ as a manager or controller it takes nothing away from the experience of all that is lived, including the emotions and pain. When the concept of a ‘me’ is seen as an illusion and taken out of the equation life continues just as it always did but with no one actually living it.
2) The illusion of the separation is where through conditioning/programming of the brain a belief of an individual is fashioned. Thoughts then have the pronoun ‘I’ attached by habit and training and from there a separate self is created. All actions, language, emotions, thoughts, feelings, memories and tendencies are then attributed to an individual being that is in control and managing the body/mind.
This all starts with the new born baby where, against all natural inclinations, the embedding of the illusion of an ‘I’ takes place. The baby is repeatedly taught the ownership of objects. Names are assigned to everything and a relationship of subject/object is entrenched and reinforced for the rest of its life. The baby is taught its reflection in the mirror is itself, a separate individual person, and that anything not of him/her (including sounds) is outside and therefore separate. So just like Father Christmas is taught as a real figure with amazing stories told, written about and films made of him, there is collusion by everyone in the family and in society including school teachers that perpetuates this illusion/lie. And until it is known otherwise and the illusion exposed, this seems perfectly normal and is easily accepted.
3) To see the illusion is similar to when you first know that Santa is a phantom. It somehow makes sense and explains some of the anomalies for example, even from an early age there’s usually a slight doubt about how Santa manages to get around the world in a night and how does he fit down the chimney. In the same way it can be seen that the control of life we battle to maintain was never truly a possibility in the first place – life has always had its own way and any battle with reality is always lost. It feels liberating and makes perfect sense. It is noticed that by seeing through the illusion nothing is actually lost, there is no feeling of loss as is felt, for example, when one’s relationship breaks down and the partner leaves. Nothing changes; it can’t because everything remains as it always has been. Only the concept disappears.
4) There have been many incredible inventions/findings throughout the centuries in areas such as technology and medicine in transport and in science. These have been made by the some of the most celebrated geniuses who have gone down in the annals of history. But amongst the greatest of all these people there is room for one more and that person is you. While some of these scientists describe and postulate how the universe may have begun and when this occurred there is a more direct way for you knowing the answer to this and that is the universe and everything in it is created every day by you;. Though the paradox here is that while this is the case there is no individual you in this scenario. To understand how you do this I first need to show you how there is no you that actually exists.
Imagine a beautiful sunrise or breathtaking sunset. Check out with the most intelligent of people, family, friends and teachers all will confirm what you see and that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Look up to the sky on a clear summer’s day with a cloudless blue sky and see the brilliance of the sun immediately above shining down. Who could argue with what the eye sees and with what everyone agrees. However, none of this is true. It is all a concept; agreed upon and accepted. In actual fact the sun doesn’t move, it never rises nor sets, nor does it move across the sky. It doesn’t ‘come out’ and never ‘goes in’. The sky doesn’t exist. It too is a concept, an illusion. It is just refracted light. Knowing this alters nothing. But at least the truth can be seen, then afterwards you can go back to enjoying the concept, but now with the truth always with you.
The concept of an ‘I’ is the same. In reality it doesn’t exist and was created in the same way as the idea that the sun rises and sets, or as in same way the Tooth Fairy or Santa was created. If you search for the ‘I’ beyond a concept or thought you won’t be able to find one. But the only way you can know this is not by reading this or anything else, you need to begin to investigate for yourself. What you will find is the ‘I’ is not the body. It is not in/or of the brain and it cannot be found in mind except as a thought. Life lives itself and the thought attaches itself as an ‘I’ and claims doership. By removing the pronoun ‘I’ ‘me’ ‘mine’ from any activity sensation or feeling subject/object you will see that it simply arises and doesn’t have, or need, nor ever has had an ‘I’, me or mine in control, running the show.
After seeing this to be true you will then realize there is no separation; that there are no boundaries no cutting off point between anything experienced, whether within or without, and that sounds and sights all happen as one. Hearing happens, seeing happens, sensations, thoughts and feelings happen, all by themselves. This includes the entire universe, everything, it all exists within the individual embodiment as experience. Like walking into a painting, the trees, the landscape, the houses and roads while appearing to be individual, things are just paint, different shades and colours but all just paint with only apparent individual objects, and all as one, inseparable from the canvas.
So how do you create the universe? Each night as you enter the dreamless sleep state there is no ‘I’ there is no existence, this is no awareness. But as soon as you awake the entire universe (including you) come into existence in all its vibrancy. Everything happening all at once - and all as one.
Chris
I hope this meets with your requirements as I haven’t had a great deal of time to work on it.
1) There is no ‘me’ in any way shape or form. There isn’t now, nor was there ever, anyone who personally lived this life known as Chris’ life. All there is is experience of life living in all its glory. There is nothing that is separate from anything else. There is seeing and hearing - sights, sounds, colours, shapes, movement and stillness happening in a non-local, localised space where all these things that were seen as ‘out there’ and ‘in here’ meet as one.
There is a feedback loop whereby these experiences are recognised within an apparent person as an individual experiencer and that feedback is in tandem with the conditioning and programming of that feedback unit (person). The awareness that is apparent is not a ‘me’ who is aware but life experiencing itself as life. By taking away the idea of an ‘I’ as a manager or controller it takes nothing away from the experience of all that is lived, including the emotions and pain. When the concept of a ‘me’ is seen as an illusion and taken out of the equation life continues just as it always did but with no one actually living it.
2) The illusion of the separation is where through conditioning/programming of the brain a belief of an individual is fashioned. Thoughts then have the pronoun ‘I’ attached by habit and training and from there a separate self is created. All actions, language, emotions, thoughts, feelings, memories and tendencies are then attributed to an individual being that is in control and managing the body/mind.
This all starts with the new born baby where, against all natural inclinations, the embedding of the illusion of an ‘I’ takes place. The baby is repeatedly taught the ownership of objects. Names are assigned to everything and a relationship of subject/object is entrenched and reinforced for the rest of its life. The baby is taught its reflection in the mirror is itself, a separate individual person, and that anything not of him/her (including sounds) is outside and therefore separate. So just like Father Christmas is taught as a real figure with amazing stories told, written about and films made of him, there is collusion by everyone in the family and in society including school teachers that perpetuates this illusion/lie. And until it is known otherwise and the illusion exposed, this seems perfectly normal and is easily accepted.
3) To see the illusion is similar to when you first know that Santa is a phantom. It somehow makes sense and explains some of the anomalies for example, even from an early age there’s usually a slight doubt about how Santa manages to get around the world in a night and how does he fit down the chimney. In the same way it can be seen that the control of life we battle to maintain was never truly a possibility in the first place – life has always had its own way and any battle with reality is always lost. It feels liberating and makes perfect sense. It is noticed that by seeing through the illusion nothing is actually lost, there is no feeling of loss as is felt, for example, when one’s relationship breaks down and the partner leaves. Nothing changes; it can’t because everything remains as it always has been. Only the concept disappears.
4) There have been many incredible inventions/findings throughout the centuries in areas such as technology and medicine in transport and in science. These have been made by the some of the most celebrated geniuses who have gone down in the annals of history. But amongst the greatest of all these people there is room for one more and that person is you. While some of these scientists describe and postulate how the universe may have begun and when this occurred there is a more direct way for you knowing the answer to this and that is the universe and everything in it is created every day by you;. Though the paradox here is that while this is the case there is no individual you in this scenario. To understand how you do this I first need to show you how there is no you that actually exists.
Imagine a beautiful sunrise or breathtaking sunset. Check out with the most intelligent of people, family, friends and teachers all will confirm what you see and that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Look up to the sky on a clear summer’s day with a cloudless blue sky and see the brilliance of the sun immediately above shining down. Who could argue with what the eye sees and with what everyone agrees. However, none of this is true. It is all a concept; agreed upon and accepted. In actual fact the sun doesn’t move, it never rises nor sets, nor does it move across the sky. It doesn’t ‘come out’ and never ‘goes in’. The sky doesn’t exist. It too is a concept, an illusion. It is just refracted light. Knowing this alters nothing. But at least the truth can be seen, then afterwards you can go back to enjoying the concept, but now with the truth always with you.
The concept of an ‘I’ is the same. In reality it doesn’t exist and was created in the same way as the idea that the sun rises and sets, or as in same way the Tooth Fairy or Santa was created. If you search for the ‘I’ beyond a concept or thought you won’t be able to find one. But the only way you can know this is not by reading this or anything else, you need to begin to investigate for yourself. What you will find is the ‘I’ is not the body. It is not in/or of the brain and it cannot be found in mind except as a thought. Life lives itself and the thought attaches itself as an ‘I’ and claims doership. By removing the pronoun ‘I’ ‘me’ ‘mine’ from any activity sensation or feeling subject/object you will see that it simply arises and doesn’t have, or need, nor ever has had an ‘I’, me or mine in control, running the show.
After seeing this to be true you will then realize there is no separation; that there are no boundaries no cutting off point between anything experienced, whether within or without, and that sounds and sights all happen as one. Hearing happens, seeing happens, sensations, thoughts and feelings happen, all by themselves. This includes the entire universe, everything, it all exists within the individual embodiment as experience. Like walking into a painting, the trees, the landscape, the houses and roads while appearing to be individual, things are just paint, different shades and colours but all just paint with only apparent individual objects, and all as one, inseparable from the canvas.
So how do you create the universe? Each night as you enter the dreamless sleep state there is no ‘I’ there is no existence, this is no awareness. But as soon as you awake the entire universe (including you) come into existence in all its vibrancy. Everything happening all at once - and all as one.
Chris
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Beautiful, Chris!
Let me show this to the other guides who will either confirm that you definitely have 'passed through the gateless gate', or they may have some questions to add.
One more question from me - How are 'you' feeling now, Chris? You said it feels 'liberating' - anything else?
with love
Odemira
Let me show this to the other guides who will either confirm that you definitely have 'passed through the gateless gate', or they may have some questions to add.
One more question from me - How are 'you' feeling now, Chris? You said it feels 'liberating' - anything else?
with love
Odemira
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Hi Odemira
I feel like the shackles have been broken off, that a weight that had been resting on my shoulders as I sought the ‘cosseted’ prize called ‘realisation’ had been lifted. I can sit peacefully in the knowledge that there is no ‘I’ in this wonderfully complex, intelligent, amazing expression of life labelled Chris.
The feelings I get vary depending on where I am or what I’m doing. The feeling of no-self at times feels strong and deep (although there is no one who feels this). At others, like, for example at work today, going through my appraisal with my manager I became embroiled again in the illusion of an ‘I’.
This isn’t a concern because underlying the varying depths of the no-self there is always an awareness of the illusion waiting to tap me on the shoulder and remind me of the illusion. Yet as I sat in a meeting yesterday at work there was a feeling of relaxation, acceptance and calmness as awareness rested in the no-self and in the oneness of everything - everyone in the room and even the room itself.
I have no expectations of feeling in either of the ways mentioned above and know that whatever arises it is arising for ‘no one’ – though I have no expectations there is a desire for the deepening of this to mature. There may well be a deepening of this liberation as time goes by and I can see how that might happen. But now I know there is no longer a ‘me’ who could benefit or be disappointed however things unfold.
In summary, now, at this very moment, the outstanding feeling is gratitude for an undercurrent of knowing that there is no ‘me’ in reality. The undercurrent is sometimes strong (and obvious) at others weak (and subtle), but always present.
This gratitude also extends to you, Odemira
Chris
I feel like the shackles have been broken off, that a weight that had been resting on my shoulders as I sought the ‘cosseted’ prize called ‘realisation’ had been lifted. I can sit peacefully in the knowledge that there is no ‘I’ in this wonderfully complex, intelligent, amazing expression of life labelled Chris.
The feelings I get vary depending on where I am or what I’m doing. The feeling of no-self at times feels strong and deep (although there is no one who feels this). At others, like, for example at work today, going through my appraisal with my manager I became embroiled again in the illusion of an ‘I’.
This isn’t a concern because underlying the varying depths of the no-self there is always an awareness of the illusion waiting to tap me on the shoulder and remind me of the illusion. Yet as I sat in a meeting yesterday at work there was a feeling of relaxation, acceptance and calmness as awareness rested in the no-self and in the oneness of everything - everyone in the room and even the room itself.
I have no expectations of feeling in either of the ways mentioned above and know that whatever arises it is arising for ‘no one’ – though I have no expectations there is a desire for the deepening of this to mature. There may well be a deepening of this liberation as time goes by and I can see how that might happen. But now I know there is no longer a ‘me’ who could benefit or be disappointed however things unfold.
In summary, now, at this very moment, the outstanding feeling is gratitude for an undercurrent of knowing that there is no ‘me’ in reality. The undercurrent is sometimes strong (and obvious) at others weak (and subtle), but always present.
This gratitude also extends to you, Odemira
Chris
-
jackalpacafish
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:07 pm
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
hello,
I am probably all over the place with this but I am having little success with getting this process off the ground. I have made contact with one on one and three on one but no responses after the opening lines.
Not sure what to make of this. To many people? Will you help me?
jack
I am probably all over the place with this but I am having little success with getting this process off the ground. I have made contact with one on one and three on one but no responses after the opening lines.
Not sure what to make of this. To many people? Will you help me?
jack
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Jack,
I set up your personal thread 2 weeks ago, and sent you an email pointing you at it. There was no reply from you. Please either reply to the email, or find the thread on the one one one forum called 'Jack, this thread is for you' or repost a new request in the one on one forum, ok?
Odemira
I set up your personal thread 2 weeks ago, and sent you an email pointing you at it. There was no reply from you. Please either reply to the email, or find the thread on the one one one forum called 'Jack, this thread is for you' or repost a new request in the one on one forum, ok?
Odemira
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Hi Chris,
Apologies for the attempted hi-jack of your thread! I will get back to you later today about confirmation.
Odemira
Apologies for the attempted hi-jack of your thread! I will get back to you later today about confirmation.
Odemira
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Hi Odemira
Lol. Like your "hi-jack" thing, excellent! No probs, poor Jack, I hope he manages to find his thread at some point.
I just want to mention this (for what it's worth) as I forgot in my last couple of replies; not sure if it adds any value or helps but I found it fascinating:
I have noticed as I see other people, whether family, colleagues or strangers that there is no ‘self’ in them. At times it’s a wonderful experience to watch them do their thing and seeing how easy it is to recognise there is no ‘I’ in them doing anything nor is there a need for an ‘I’ in anything they do (of course I included myself in this). It can be very funny at times to be honest. But I also realise we are all co-dependant cells of one organism appearing as individual, independent entities.
Chris
Lol. Like your "hi-jack" thing, excellent! No probs, poor Jack, I hope he manages to find his thread at some point.
I just want to mention this (for what it's worth) as I forgot in my last couple of replies; not sure if it adds any value or helps but I found it fascinating:
I have noticed as I see other people, whether family, colleagues or strangers that there is no ‘self’ in them. At times it’s a wonderful experience to watch them do their thing and seeing how easy it is to recognise there is no ‘I’ in them doing anything nor is there a need for an ‘I’ in anything they do (of course I included myself in this). It can be very funny at times to be honest. But I also realise we are all co-dependant cells of one organism appearing as individual, independent entities.
Chris
Re: Looking for a guide & not a teacher? Come in here
Hi Chris,
You've been confirmed as having passed through the gateless gate! I'll send you a PM with the next steps.
with love
Odemira
You've been confirmed as having passed through the gateless gate! I'll send you a PM with the next steps.
with love
Odemira
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 266 guests