Help seeing through the separate self

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

I'm happy that is clear!

I will reconnect with you on Monday morning unless you want another meditation before then.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend,

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Thank you!

I might have time for something tomorrow but no rush! I am enjoying listening to sounds.

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Here's something to keep you going! :)

HAND ON TABLE
Please close your eyes for this exercise, take a few deep breaths so you feel calm and relaxed. Notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.

Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

What do you find?

Can an INHERENT FEELER be found?

Would anything that is suggested as a 'feeler' be anything other than an idea or a thought?

Of course, you can repeat this with other body parts like feet on the floor, back of body lying on the bed etc.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I hope you had a lovely weekend! Here is what I found:

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?

There is only one thing, sensation.

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

No feeler can be found.

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

No there isn't a hand feeling a table, there is just one sensation.

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

I don't find an I, a body or a hand 'feeling'. There is just sensation

What do you find?

I find sensation of pulsing and tingling, there is no boundary between the hand and the table there is just one sensation.

Can an INHERENT FEELER be found?

Would anything that is suggested as a 'feeler' be anything other than an idea or a thought?

No feeler can be found, there isn't a 'me' doing the feeling there is just feeling. A feeler is just an idea or thought. Much like the seeing exercise there isn't a me that can turn feeling on or off so there isn't any doing.

I tried this with a few body parts and it was the same every time.
This is such a beautiful realisation!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

I am so happy that you had this beautiful realisation. Relaxing into pure sensation - the whole body-mind system can relax.

Getting you all set up for tomorrow!

OBSERVING THOUGHTS MEDITATION
The Direct experience of thought is also very important in the seeing through the self illusion. As always take your time to get comfortable and relaxed before beginning this meditation. Take it slowly and trying not to think about the answer, just let it come with what you experience directly. If you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write as it comes; from the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes. Each question can be a meditation in itself.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

Please answer ALL the questions.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good morning!

I am looking forward to spending some time on this, this afternoon. Before then can you clarify something for me?

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

I am assuming here that the I you referring to is the narrative I or the controller? Not the I that refers to the body-mind or I am, as in pure awareness?

Warmly
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

I am assuming here that the I you referring to is the narrative I or the controller? Not the I that refers to the body-mind or I am, as in pure awareness?

This is a very good question. The different traditions talk about it in different ways and I am totally flexible in whatever language suits you, but for now the question is really to keep you looking for a 'something' separate or independent of experience that gets referred to by thought as "I", "I am controlling", "I am choosing. So when you mention the "I" that refers to the body-mind, you will need to look in your direct experience for a body-mind that can be found separate from all experience. We will have meditators on this soon! The different traditions can give an intellectual understanding which is very helpful for the 'mind' to make sense of, but it is a map, not the territory, i.e. for 'you' to 'see' for yourself. This is the purpose of the LU forum.

I realize that this doesn't answer your question fully, but I hope it will do for now. If overthinking starts then that is a SIGNAL for you to take a few deep breaths and sit with pure body sensations (i.e. hand on table) and allow the body to relax.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Thank you so much! I have had a go at this - here are my thoughts:

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Thoughts appear in my mind, they don’t come from or go anywhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No they just appear, they sometimes correlate to whatever my attention is on or they just appear randomly.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

When thoughts are just flowing then no. But I can force particular thoughts, for example, I can say I want to think about unicorns and then I think about unicorns. But then again, did I “decide” that or did it just happen?

Can you predict your next thought?

Not usually, although thoughts do seem to follow a pattern. I tried counting as many numbers as I could in my head to see how far I could get and I only got to 48 before a thought came - this is boring, so I guess I didn't predict that!

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I wish I could but I can’t!

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Unfortunately not!

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

If I look at my dog I know I will think about my dog, but I don’t know if I am “choosing” that!

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No!

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

It feels like it does, but I know that the thought follows a “decision” that has already been made by the body-mind. It feels like the mind generates a thought so that the body takes action but I’m not sure this means that the actual thought had agency in the first place! A thought can affect my mood (or is it the other way round?).

Can a thought think another thought?

No.

Can you find an "I" without a thought that says "I"?

No, I can have a thought that says here is my body, but that is a thought.

I actually got quite upset doing this, because I know I can't control thoughts but it really feels like there is some control there. And I know feeling it isn't direct experience, but I just can't shake this feeling!

Sorry there is a lot to unpack here!

Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

I actually got quite upset doing this, because I know I can't control thoughts but it really feels like there is some control there. And I know feeling it isn't direct experience, but I just can't shake this feeling!

Sorry there is a lot to unpack here!

Yes, there is a lot to unpack, and thanks for sharing your experience. I want to assure you that feeling is absolutely direct experience. Feeling is another word for body sensation, it is just more loaded with content (description) i.e. I feel bad, I feel good. As soon as we use the words "I feel" that is an indication to go straight into the body. So "I feel bad", okay, what does "I feel bad" feel like?.... sensations in the solar plexus perhaps?

Generally we go about evaluating our reality through the lens of thoughts, but thoughts are mostly overlay on to our direct experience. So the sensations were in the body already, and then thoughts came afterwards saying "I feel bad". I hope this clarifies things for you.

OK, now let's go back to the beginning of the inquiry:

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

When thoughts are just flowing then no. But I can force particular thoughts, for example, I can say I want to think about unicorns and then I think about unicorns. But then again, did I “decide” that or did it just happen?

Exactly, well spotted. A thought said "I can force a particular thought", i.e. about unicorns, but where did the thought to think about unicorns come from? As you rightly question did "I" decide that or did it just happen?
Thought will say "I decided". But that is a thought. So now we have to look for a separate, independent "I" or 'thinker". Where can we look?
Apart from the thought that says "I decided" the only place to look for the "I" is in the body? So now it is time to do a body scan. You can look wherever you think the separate "I" might be lurking.

Can you find a separate, independent "I" anywhere in the body? Please answer yes or no.

Can you predict your next thought?

Not usually, although thoughts do seem to follow a pattern. I tried counting as many numbers as I could in my head to see how far I could get and I only got to 48 before a thought came - this is boring, so I guess I didn't predict that!

Very creative! You are seeing clearly that you didn't predict that.... "this is boring" !!!

You said above "that thoughts do seem to follow a pattern"
Do you have a direct experience that thoughts seem to follow a pattern, or is this just another thought?
Remember, direct experience is seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling, tasting and thinking (but not the content of thoughts).

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

If I look at my dog I know I will think about my dog, but I don’t know if I am “choosing” that!

If you look at your dog, you can be sure that you will think about your dog,
but can you say in advance exactly what thought about your dog you will think?

If the thought "he has muddy paws" arises, would you have thought that thought without a prior noticing of dirty paw marks on the kitchen floor?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

It feels like it does, but I know that the thought follows a “decision” that has already been made by the body-mind. It feels like the mind generates a thought so that the body takes action but I’m not sure this means that the actual thought had agency in the first place! A thought can affect my mood (or is it the other way round?).

Are you interpreting this as:
Can a thought make you do something?
Please go to your direct experience:
Can a thought do anything, other than be a thought? Thinking happening
Can a thought that say's I am hungry take action and provide you with dinner?
Do you remember the recent thought inquiry of the cup?

There is a lot of ''entanglement" between signals coming from the body that are often ignored in favour of thoughts interpreting what is going on. This is how we have been conditioned, that we are thinking beings first of all, and the feeling being part of us doesn't always get much attention. Thoughts are constantly being generated from signals coming from the body.

For these exercises it is really important to stay out of the conceptual, out of the thinking mind, and get really clear about direct experience, that is the only way to get clarity.

Are you clear about this?



PALM FLIPPING MEDITATION
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire: How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it? YES of NO?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? YES or NO?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down? YES or NO?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening? YES or NO?


Warmly,

Rowena

[Noro]

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down? YES or NO?

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening? YES or NO?

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you this has been a very reassuring explanation!

"I feel" that is an indication to go straight into the body. So "I feel bad", okay, what does "I feel bad" feel like?.... sensations in the solar plexus perhaps?

It felt like a pounding in the heart and tightness in the stomach yes. I guess I need to be much more intune to the body!

Can you find a separate, independent "I" anywhere in the body? Please answer yes or no.

No, I looked everywhere and can't find an 'I'.

Do you have a direct experience that thoughts seem to follow a pattern, or is this just another thought?

No they are totally random, when I am meditating they seem to mostly follow my attention but I don't know what they will be about.

can you say in advance exactly what thought about your dog you will think?

If the thought "he has muddy paws" arises, would you have thought that thought without a prior noticing of dirty paw marks on the kitchen floor?

No! I have no idea what the thought will be about!

Can a thought do anything, other than be a thought? Thinking happening
Can a thought that say's I am hungry take action and provide you with dinner?
Do you remember the recent thought inquiry of the cup?

No thinking just 'is', it can't make my dinner or do anything. It isn't real.

Hand flipping exercise

How is the movement controlled?

I really don't know!

Does a thought control it? YES of NO?

No

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? YES or NO?

No

-

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I don't know it was out of my control

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

There was no choice.

Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down? YES or NO?

No

Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening? YES or NO?

A thought didn't initiate anything, I read the instructions and then it just happened. I didn't decide when to start and stop. In fact there was no thinking. It was quite a strange feeling!

Warm wishes
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

It was great to see your responses from your direct experience!

It felt like a pounding in the heart and tightness in the stomach yes. I guess I need to be much more intune to the body!

Yes, please make this a practice. Whenever there is something that feels personal, there is always something going on in the body that will be interpreted as a thought. Thinking happening, one thought followed by another thought and another.

If there is a thought that says "I think......." just look!
Can a separate "thinker" be found? Yes/No?
In direct experience it is either yes or no, never "maybe", never "I'm not sure.... "


Here's another inquiry for tomorrow:

DRINKS MEDITATION - CHOICE/AGENCY
The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Consider their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking, in direct experience, for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of events? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty, an "I", doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you apparently made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Where is it located?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Have a good evening,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good afternoon!

Here is what I found:

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities just appeared by themselves. The preferences just popped up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of events? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Initially the counting shut down the formulation of the preferences (I didn't choose to do this) but as I got closer to 5 the preferences kind of bubbled up to the surface without any control.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty, an "I", doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

It felt like 'I' was doing the choosing - the thoughts arose and then a preference was chosen but when I sat after to look for the 'I' , I didn't find one.

In step 3 where you apparently made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Where is it located?

Nothing arose that said I am the chooser, the thoughts arose and then an action took place. To be honest I was surprised at the choice. In fact I did it a couple of times and even switched the glasses around as initially 'I' thought that there might have been a bias as I was using my right hand, but then I grabbed the same drink again with the left hand.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

No, much like yesterday's exercise a thought or a feeling can't do anything, it is just a thought or a feeling.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Nothing arose that said I am the chooser, the thoughts arose and then an action took place. To be honest I was surprised at the choice. In fact I did it a couple of times and even switched the glasses around as initially 'I' thought that there might have been a bias as I was using my right hand, but then I grabbed the same drink again with the left hand.

This is very clear, and now for a quick check-in before we continue:

When you had this seeing that there really is no 'chooser', how did that experience make you feel?
Or, rather, now you have seen that there is no 'chooser', what is the 'body' response to this understanding?

Please keep your answer from the perspective of your direct experience, not conceptual thought.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I have been thinking about this over this afternoon,

Or, rather, now you have seen that there is no 'chooser', what is the 'body' response to this understanding?

My initial response was - it is hard to describe what the body response is. It feels freeing but this isn't a body response, so like an expansion in the chest and heart area.

Having done some further investigation, when going about my daily life it actually feels quite normal. I don't know how to describe it as a bodily sensation, it is just a sort of relaxed free flowing state. Thoughts come and go, decisions are made but there doesn't seem to be a chooser. It is only when I concentrate on it more that it feels like I am choosing. I hope that makes sense!

Ellie

Ellie