I think I'm ready

[Derek]

Ok, you're doing great.

Now zoom in on what's actually happening here and now. "Me/other" is part of a story, an abstraction from experience, not actual experience.

What are you experiencing right now?

Do you see a real and solid self in your direct experience of the present moment?

[Derek]

I am going to terminate my involvement in this thread now, partly to concentrate on other projects, and partly because I find it very wearing when clients take several days to do a few seconds of honest looking

[anonymous2012]

I am going to terminate my involvement in this thread now, partly to concentrate on other projects, and partly because I find it very wearing when clients take several days to do a few seconds of honest looking

Thank you for the effort you put into these posts. My apologies if you feel I have wasted your time, that was never my intention. If it's worth anything at this point, I have put much more than a few seconds into honest looking and will continue to do so.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Thomas, vince here. Stepping in for Derek.
Tell me what are your expectations with this ?

[anonymous2012]

Tell me what are your expectations with this ?

Hi Vince, thank you for stepping in. Expectations would be, at this point, to see through the delusion of self to the truth.

[vinceschubert]

see through the delusion of self to the truth.

What do you imagine "truth" will be like ?

[anonymous2012]

see through the delusion of self to the truth.

What do you imagine "truth" will be like ?

Hmmm. Having not seen the truth myself, I guess I've been collecting descriptions of it from others. "Liberation" "Enlightenment" etc. But if I had to define what I think it would be, I would say the cessation of the thought patterns of creating a false identity I associate as "myself". Which, I think naturally, would cause my day-to-day actions and perceptions to shift in what I would currently consider a more positive direction. Less anger, selfishness, less useless fantasies, things like that.

[vinceschubert]

the cessation of the thought patterns of creating a false identity

What is your response, if i tell you that those thought patterns may never cease ? (even after enlghtenment)
How then would it be possible to have "Less anger, selfishness, less useless fantasies, things like that." ?

[anonymous2012]

the cessation of the thought patterns of creating a false identity

What is your response, if i tell you that those thought patterns may never cease ? (even after enlghtenment)
How then would it be possible to have "Less anger, selfishness, less useless fantasies, things like that." ?

Hmmm. If those kinds of thoughts still come even after enlightenment, then my response would be that the difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened would be how they viewed or responded to those thoughts. Not identifying with them. So, for example, when driving in traffic, if anger appears, or an expectation of how others should be driving appears, the unenlightened would take it personally (as I do now). "These people are slowing ME down. They are in MY way." The situation becomes personal, and I get carried away in the emotions. I would think after enlightenment, I would instead not take the situation personally, as there is recognized to be no person to take it personally for. Without taking it personally, the anger would not come, or if it did, that too would not be identified with and would pass quickly instead of being a point of focus.
I can, now, at least recognize when I am doing this, when I am expecting things of others, or myself, when anger rises, etc, and after the fact, reflect on them (who is angry? who has this anger? where does it come from? where does it reside?) but it's only after the fact, and only with effort. Not automatic at all. The automatic response is still very much to get caught up in the feelings/associations, etc.

[vinceschubert]

difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened would be how they viewed or responded to those thoughts.

Almost perfect. If you had said (instead) ..how thoughts are responded to, that would have been 100%

I would think after enlightenment, I would instead not take the situation personally,

another good one, but try rephrasing it so that 'I' doesn't get mentioned.

I can, now, at least recognize when I am doing this,

Recognition will start to happen during the event and then before it is about to occur.

I would think after enlightenment,

No you wouldn't. Tell me why ?
Tell me where is this I you keep referring to. Locate it, define it. Tell me why it is real ?

[anonymous2012]

I would think after enlightenment,

No you wouldn't. Tell me why ?
Tell me where is this I you keep referring to. Locate it, define it. Tell me why it is real ?

The why would be because this idea of self is created and has no substantial reality. I wouldn't think after enlightenment, there would simply be thoughts without a self associated with them.
As to where it is located, it seems to be a pattern of thoughts (in "my" head). I can't tell you why it's real because I don't believe it is real anymore, I just can't seem to "pop" and see it. It's like a child who is told Santa isn't real, and gets it, sure, Santa never made much sense anyway if you thought about it, but there is still that lingering feeling. Wanting to fight against the reality? Wishing it wasn't the case? It's hard to say what the barrier is at this point, but it seems if it could be identified, that would help? Is this the gate, whatever "I" am clinging to?
There is so much back and forth going on in here, feeling tripped up by using "I" in the conventional manner in these posts, feeling like a fake if I avoid it, part of "me" who wants to break free and another part that resists. Who has these feelings? Who is the fake? "I" will meditate on it during my lunch break today.

[anonymous2012]

Thought about this during lunch. When thoughts of self arose, I turned them on myself. "Who is sitting? Is there a person sitting, or just sitting?" "Who is walking? Or is there walking with no walker?" There was a strong feeling of pressure in the head, and the continued concentration made me very sleepy (made this body very sleepy?). Also tried to strongly consider that the universe and I are not separate, but that there isn't an I to be separate in the first place. There is just a body sitting, just a mind thinking, just emotions being experienced, but no person sitting, no self thinking, no me feeling emotions. Just concentration, no one concentrating.
Self persists.

[vinceschubert]

It's like a child who is told Santa isn't real, and gets it, sure,... but there is still that lingering feeling. Wanting to fight against the reality? Wishing it wasn't the case?

Great example. But underneath the (almost) conscious desire to keep believing, there is a knowing, a knowing that is almost intentionally ignored, pushed into forgetting.
Is this knowing present for 'you' ?

There was a strong feeling of pressure in the head, and the continued concentration made me very sleepy (made this body very sleepy?)

Beautiful, yes, the mind is plenty powerful. It can give you any sensation (which it then conveniently labels to suit the circumstances) to avoid what it might consider the death of self. Welcome them as a sign that you are close. Ask them what they are protecting you from. (then notice the first thoughts that arise for the answer)

tried to strongly consider that the universe and I are not separate

No point in playing thought games. That is one that you will recognise. (not think into existence)

There is just a body sitting, just a mind thinking, just emotions being experienced, but no person sitting, no self thinking, no me feeling emotions. Just concentration, no one concentrating.

Is this what thoughts say or was it experience ?

[anonymous2012]

Is this knowing present for 'you' ?

No, not yet.

Ask them what they are protecting you from. (then notice the first thoughts that arise for the answer)

They seem to be protecting "me", the ego, the delusion of self from being found out as a fraud.

There is just a body sitting, just a mind thinking, just emotions being experienced, but no person sitting, no self thinking, no me feeling emotions. Just concentration, no one concentrating.

Is this what thoughts say or was it experience ?

Thoughts saying it, not experience yet.

Over the weekend, spending time with my wife, these questions kept nagging away at me. Sometimes they seemed to fade into the back of my mind, but they kept coming to the forefront, sometimes surprising me. I am slowly starting to realize just how much time and energy human beings (unenlightened ones at least) put into creating this idea of self. How we identify with groups to define who "we" are, how we label our "selves", and how defensive we get over any challenge to those ideas. I've heard it said that the sense of self can be said to be the cause of most human suffering, and that is actually really starting to sink in.
I mean, the Olympics has been a perfect example. Look at how people get so caught up in the idea of country and national membership. Being "American"...well, what exactly is an "American"? Just a label we apply to human beings born within a certain area we label as "The United States". There is no real other definition for it, although I'm sure there are plenty of people who will tell you what being an "American" means. And how defensive they would get over something so trivial as a label!
And these are within this mind as well, "I" am not letting my"self" off the hook that easily. I identify with labels, thoughts, groups, etc. But these are of course not who "I" truly am. There is a body here, there are thoughts here, there is awareness here...is that it? There is this environment this body is a part of. There is no past here, no future, just this now. Part of me still resists the idea that there is no self, as that seems to imply that this body/mind is just an automation. That "I" have no control. Is this entire existence just a chemical reaction, moving through the rules of the universe?

[vinceschubert]

I've heard it said that the sense of self can be said to be the cause of most human suffering, and that is actually really starting to sink in.

It's not the "sense" of self that is the cause, but the belief in it, the identification with it. That's where the 'need' to protect it starts. The importance in how it is seen by others.

Part of me still resists the idea that there is no self,

Ha, yes, which part ?

That "I" have no control.

So how would you feel if you discovered that It NEVER did ! That It was always an illusion. That life happened just fine without it and that the 'not fine' parts were Always because of the Belief in that control ?

Is this entire existence just a chemical reaction, moving through the rules of the universe?

Maybe. It's a Wonder-Full mystery.
i Know nothing. i don't even Know if this is really happening of if i'm just dreaming it, but i love the mystery.
Thomas, you are very close. What is your response when i tell you that what you are seeking is something you already Are and that there is only a split second of Recognition between your ignorance and en-light-enment ?