I’m looking for a guide (again)

[Anastacia42]

Perfect. Guess what else is a label?

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

Or this one?
Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving

[LostSoul]

Hi Stacy,

I divided this exercises into two
The “apple” exercise and the “sense of self” exercise.
This is the reply for the “apple” exercise.
The “sense of self” exercise will be for tomorrow.

Perfect. Guess what else is a label?

I know where you are going with these investigations. The Rabbit Hole is getting deeper

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

Looking at an apple: yes there is a color (I labeled as red), there is a thought that I’m looking at an apple, and the apple is there as an object. There are memories (more thoughts) about previous experiences with apples .

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What is known for sure?: you are right, just the color and the thoughts about “apple”.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The content of thoughts describe the seen thing: labeling: “it’s an apple” + memories about the taste + saying “it’s good” + comparing it with previous apples I had seen before.

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.
Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

I can see that. Looking at actual experience is different from looking at the content of thoughts.
Looking at “real” apple is different from looking at an “image” of an apple inside my thought.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There is NO apple in actual experience. Only color “labeled red” and thoughts about apple.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No.

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

That is SOMETHING! Thought implies that, there is an apple in actual experience. But there is no apple.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

Yes. I started to see “what is meant by looking in actual experience” since I did the exercises you gave me about “ simply = perception (sound, color, taste, smell, sensation, thought)
Actual experience is simpler than what I thought.

However, is an apple actually known?

There is no “apple” in actual experience. Where did it go?
I have always thought “apple” is a name (label) that has a one-to-one correspondence with a real apple there.

This is mind-blowing exercises. How come there is no apple in actual experience? But every time i look… yes Stacy is right… there is no apple in actual experience. There is a label “apple” and thoughts about apple… but the content of the thought is not part of the actual experience.


Sincerely,

[Anastacia42]

That's great. Yes.

Please forgive me. Explore Sense of Self IS a separate exercise.

Thank you.

Loving

[LostSoul]

Yes Stacy
I will do it as a separate exercise and report to you my findings.

Sincerely,

[LostSoul]

Hi Stacy,

Or this one?
Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

The “key” example makes me think about the power of beliefs.
When I was a kid in our village. There was an “urban legend” of a creature that eats human and I believed the stories from my grandma, mother and father. Even one time my father wanted to show me the markings of the creature’s “teeth” in the door of our mayor’s house (he didn’t show me). Looking back: it was like the “apple”. There was No creature. I just believed the stories. I told those stories to my daughter. She was not convinced. But for me I was a believer when I was in her age.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

As if the location is inside and around the head. But when I use my hands to localize my head from front to back and from side to side. The location isn’t within the head. It is a vague location. Like it is borrowing its location from the existing sensations of the head.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

It has no clear shape or size. It’s a vague subtle sensation.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

The sense of self doesn’t say anything. It doesn’t even see. It doesn’t hear. It doesn’t smell. It doesn’t taste. It doesn’t feel any sensation. It isn’t aware of thoughts. It isn’t aware of itself. It is just there like a silent watcher. But it doesn’t even watch. That’s funny. It is just there “silent” and has no function.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

It has no characteristics or attributes. I can’t even describe it. It is a subtle sensation that is different from other sensations (like the sensations in the chest or hands). I can describe the sensation in my chest but the sense of self is very subtle.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

The sense of self is made of subtle sensation and a vague image of my face or images of part of my body. These images changes. If I’m mad, there will be an image of an angry face. If I’m happy there will be a happy face.

What is found?

What is this “sense of self”? Why is it here? What is the function? Why it doesn’t say anything? Why it doesn’t do anything? Like a useless accessory thing.
Why do I believe it is me?
When I look at “actual experience”: it is just a sensation and vague subtle images, maybe thoughts commenting or criticizing me. But there is no label on all of these “actual experiences”.
Why do I label it as “me”.
Is it like the label “apple”. I found out there is no apple in actual experience. I just believed there is an apple.

Sincerely,

[Anastacia42]

Yes. Sense of "self" is nothing but a vague Sensation of tension (like the lie feeling) and thoughts (images in thoughts)

it like the label “apple”. I found out there is no apple in actual experience. I just believed there is an apple.

Yes. in Direct Experience, there is nothing there.

How does it FEEL to see this?

Loving

[LostSoul]

Hi Stacy,

Yes there is nothing indicating any “self” in direct experience. I just labeled “the direct experience” as “myself” and I’ve acted as if it is true. I have lied and believed my lie.
I think I’m still processing this finding.
I don’t feel anything new. I don’t feel I’m getting it. No “aha” moment. But as if the belief is shaken, even still there is, but not as strong as before.
So the “self” is just a label. It is the “apple”, the “creature” from childhood. Just a “label”…..


I feel I’m like buffering during video streaming.
loading…..

Sincerely,

[Anastacia42]

I feel I’m like buffering during video streaming.
loading…..

Great analogy. Yes, something like that.

"Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes us accident prone."

Sunryu Suzuki

We cannot predict it and we cannot make it happen. We can only practice the conditions in which it is more likely.

This frustrates the mind because it wants everything to be linear and logical and step-by-step, but this is not. It is non linear and unpredictable.

Just keep LOOKING & not finding any "self "

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

Loving,

[LostSoul]

Hi Stacy,

this is the most beautiful message! I don’t know why.
I’ll keep looking or better to say “the search is continuing”

Sincerely,

[Anastacia42]

I'm glad you like it.

Here is another way to LOOK.

This is the only pointer Ilona gave me when I was guided here. i practiced this for about 3 months. I call it:

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

Loving,

[LostSoul]

Hi Stacy,

Here is another way to LOOK.

This is the only pointer Ilona gave me when I was guided here. i practiced this for about 3 months. I call it:

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

I have looked into the direct experience (sensation) and there is no dividing line between my butt and the chair. Just one sensation.
There is no place where I could say my butt ends here and the chair begins next to it.

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

In direct experience, there is no division between my butt and the chair. If I close my eyes, I can’t say for sure that I’m sitting on a chair. I can only feel the sensation that I interpret as my butt sitting on a chair.

Sincerely,

[Anastacia42]

Excellent.

But remember this is not about right answers it is about the looking.

Keep looking and post here what is seen even if it is the same.

Loving,

[LostSoul]

Ok I will keep looking and report the findings

Sincerely,

[LostSoul]

Hi Stacy,

But remember this is not about right answers it is about the looking.

Keep looking and post here what is seen even if it is the same.

I’m looking and investigating the “sense of self”.
In direct experience, there is a subtle sense (almost empty space around the head) and there is a subtle image of a face.
I’m asking these Questions:
Is this empty space me?
Is this image me?
Or I just labeled them “me”? When in actual experience they aren’t “me”?
I’m not answering those questions. I’m just asking and looking.

Sincerely,

[Anastacia42]

Okay. The questions aren't necessary, but the looking is.

ButtChair is your default pointer. Keep looking with that, too.

Loving