Would love guidance for seeing no self more clearly

[ostrich]

Which one of these is each "I" in that sentence closest to? Please choose from the below three:


1. thought

2. visual image

3. bodily sensation

It feels like a combination of thought and bodily sensation. Can't say whether it's closer to one of another.

Today was the first day where I felt like I could feel the "I" at a normalish intensity but not identify with it! Like there was I and "I" at the same time. Before it felt like I was either identified with the "I", or I didn't feel like there was an "I" because the "I" was relatively quiet. I feel less identified with negative emotions and thoughts and that's helped me stay with uncomfortable sensations more easily. For example, I felt crappy today but quite calm. Usually when I feel crappy, I try really hard to not feel it and end up quite anxious and stressed.

Thank you so much for your guidance! Feel very grateful for your continued help on this journey! I feel like there's been quite a large shift in how I relate to myself and how I experience every moment. Still working on seeing the "I" more clearly and identifying with "I" less frequently. It feels like the "I" has all sorts of strategies to get me to identify with it.

[graceabounds]

Hello John,

Very good…

I feel less identified with negative emotions and thoughts and that's helped me stay with uncomfortable sensations more easily.

If I haven’t given you this before (can’t recall), there is a formula:
Emotion = thought + sensation

When thought is seen through or sensations are separated from stories the underpinnings of emotional reactivity collapses. You are experiencing this directly.

Things that happen aren’t personal… they never have been. Without the story of ‘I’ they are just what is.

It feels like a combination of thought and bodily sensation. Can't say whether it's closer to one of another.

Let’s explore and play with the body for a bit.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit. Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "John” is located.
Touch the exact location of "John".

Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel "John” in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "John” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Much love,
Becca

[ostrich]

Had too much going on today so wasn't able to get to this. Will do the exercises tomorrow.

[ostrich]

Were you able to find and feel "John” in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

No I wasn't.

Where is it?

I pointed towards my eyes and tried pointing towards my head from different angles but wasn't able to touch it or locate it exactly.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

I found nothing. When I tried to point at where I thought "John" was, I couldn't find anything at that location.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "John” (If any).

During the exercise I wasn't able to associate any sensations to "John". It felt like when I tried those sensations would disappear.

There are thoughts that "John" should be in my head but every time I look I don't find anything. When I stop looking there's a sense that "John" comes back. Trying to locate "John" quiets my mind.

[graceabounds]

Very good.

That sense of “John”… is it ever stable? Ever the same?
Or is it always a vague fog that requires your cooperation to seem real?

Is there anyone here to cooperate with the illusion?

Say the name “John” aloud.
As you say it, feel everything that arises in the body.
Now, say it again and watch what the mind wants to do with it. What does it want to attach it to?
Drop the name. What’s left? What’s here?

[ostrich]

That sense of “John”… is it ever stable? Ever the same?

I'm not sure. when I try to pay attention, it doesn't feel that stable. It only "feels stable" when I'm not paying attention. I guess more precisely there's a thought that it is stable or the same.

Or is it always a vague fog that requires your cooperation to seem real?

It feels like a vague fog that requires my cooperation in the sense that I can't look at it too closely. Looking too closely makes it disappear.

Is there anyone here to cooperate with the illusion?

I wasn't able to find anyone. Just get a bunch of thoughts related to who could be cooperating with the illusion.

Say the name “John” aloud.
As you say it, feel everything that arises in the body.
Now, say it again and watch what the mind wants to do with it. What does it want to attach it to?

It feels like it wants to attach itself to my body, sensations in my body, emotions, and thoughts.

Drop the name. What’s left? What’s here?

Not sure how to answer this question. When I drop the name, there's less of a clinging feeling / contraction of attention to all the things that was being attached. Feels like what's left is awareness of the space around me, this more spacious feeling around the experience of the sensations, thoughts and emotions.

[graceabounds]

It feels like it wants to attach itself to my body, sensations in my body, emotions, and thoughts.

Great, can you find the ‘it’ that wants to attach?
Or is it a mechanism? Automatic…

When I drop the name, there's less of a clinging feeling / contraction of attention to all the things that was being attached. Feels like what's left is awareness of the space around me, this more spacious feeling around the experience of the sensations, thoughts and emotions.

Very very good. Subtle territory here, and important.

When the name is dropped, what’s missing?

Without the name (without referring to “I,” “me,” or “mine”) Is there anything here that is separate from what’s happening?

If not, what was ever doing the clinging?


Here’s another little exercise that could support in the above:

Throughout the day, when a thought about "I" comes up, replace the letter!

"I want to have this" -> "O want to have this"
Can "O" want to have anything?
No.
How then could "I" want to have anything?

"I don't like that" -> "A don't like that"
Can "A" dislike anything?
No.
How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Observe this throughout the day and report what comes up. :)

[ostrich]

Great, can you find the ‘it’ that wants to attach?
Or is it a mechanism? Automatic…

I can't seem to find 'it'. It seems like there was a thought that there was at 'it' that wants to attach.

When the name is dropped, what’s missing?

It feels like there's less effort and tension in my head. hm... and there are less thoughts of "I"

Without the name (without referring to “I,” “me,” or “mine”) Is there anything here that is separate from what’s happening?

I can't find anything but this answer feels somewhat logical. I think I need more time to experience it.

If not, what was ever doing the clinging?

hm... I don't think anything was doing the clinging. There was a thought or belief that something was doing the clinging. I think I may need to explore this more to see it more clearly.

Saw the message too late to do the exercise throughout the day. Will do it tomorrow, and see if it changes any of my answers above and report back.

[graceabounds]

sounds good. ❤️

[ostrich]

Replacing the letter felt quite unnatural and I only remembered to do it a few times during the day. When replacing the letter, I would have thoughts of who is the letter and the "I" sensation would get stronger and say that it should be "I". But then I would wonder who "I" is and be unable to find the "I".

It felt more natural to reframe things without the I or the letter substitution. Instead of "I want to have this", reframing it to something like "The want to have this is arising".

Great, can you find the ‘it’ that wants to attach?
Or is it a mechanism? Automatic…

I still can't find 'it'. from what I can tell there is a changing sensation of attachment and a thought that the sensation corresponds to "I" coming back. And another thought that "I" am the one saying John and the one doing the attaching. That makes no sense though. "I" can't both be coming back and doing the attaching.

When the name is dropped, what’s missing?

It feels like there's less effort and tension in my head. hm... and there are less thoughts of "I"

Without the name (without referring to “I,” “me,” or “mine”) Is there anything here that is separate from what’s happening?

No, it feels like there are just sensations and thoughts. Thoughts with the name are just thoughts happening.

If not, what was ever doing the clinging?

I don't think anything was doing the clinging. There was the sensation of clinging and a thought or belief that something was doing the clinging. The sensation of clinging could just arise without a clinger.

[graceabounds]

Yes the body knows that the ‘I’ construct is unnatural. And notice here:

When replacing the letter, I would have thoughts of who is the letter and the "I" sensation would get stronger and say that it should be "I".

It is a good tool to look directly at thing itself that is claiming ownership after the fact.

There was the sensation of clinging and a thought or belief that something was doing the clinging.

And here again, arising after the sensation claiming it.

Yet this very moment, can you find a “clinger”? Not the sensation or the thought about it but the actual doer?

Let the sensation of clinging be fully here.
Now without going into thoughts, what is it?

Just feel it.
Is it personal?

[ostrich]

Yet this very moment, can you find a “clinger”? Not the sensation or the thought about it but the actual doer?

No, I can only find the sensations and thoughts about it.

Let the sensation of clinging be fully here.
Now without going into thoughts, what is it?

It just feels like tension in my head and a constriction of attention.

Just feel it.
Is it personal?

no? It just feels like sensations

[graceabounds]

It just feels like tension in my head and a constriction of attention

Great.

Is there any ‘you’ in this sensation?

…in any sensation?

[ostrich]

Is there any ‘you’ in this sensation?

nope

…in any sensation?

nope, I've been looking but still can't find a 'me'. pretty convinced I won't find a 'me'. the more I look the more illusory the 'me' seems

[graceabounds]

Lovely.

Coming back here:

There being no 'self' feels more like a theoretical understanding. The 'self' still feels very real

Is it still theoretical?

Is seeking still present?