How are things Lucy?
Warm thoughts from here.
Discovery
Re: Discovery
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
Hi Elad,
It's good to have the opportunity to talk to you again.
I looked at some of Vince's videos but found there were a lot of people talking about how they felt and this is what made me withdraw from this process for a while, that sense that I was dealing with my own feelings rather than what really is. So I will give it another go but it didn't really work for me at this point.
There were two issues that kept occurring to me while I was away from this process. The first was that perhaps I have been expecting too much - some kind of huge sense of life changing enlightenment. It's very easy to find lots of people who say that the knowledge of no self is life-changing, with a huge sense of connectedness to everything - everything looks more beautiful and the colors are brighter and every experience better, but I myself have no real reason to expect this because I have no evidence for it from my senses. I have flashes of feeling my connectedness to everything or of feeling the true beauty and simplicity that life is but they are only flashes, yet many people promote the idea of seeing no self as something that irrevocably changes everything forever. I think many people want to believe this, but I find that I don't want to believe anything.
I don't need or desire the Earth shattering experience and have no reason to believe that it can happen to me, but perhaps the seeing of no self has happened and this is all it's ever really going to be - that I'm not going to imbue it with some almost religious like enlightenment and that it just is what it is. All I'm really experiencing is that there's nothing that can be known, no old values that can really be still held. Old motivations and old desires are valueless there is only what is.
Yet of course all values are still there, if someone punched me on the nose I would instinctively be furious and want to take action, yet my belief now seems to be that I could have been in their shoes - it's that fatalistic belief of nobody controls their destiny.
And this is the second issue that kept coming up - if there is no self is there any point in attempting to exert free will at all?I think this could lead me to become very fatalistic.
Lucy
It's good to have the opportunity to talk to you again.
I looked at some of Vince's videos but found there were a lot of people talking about how they felt and this is what made me withdraw from this process for a while, that sense that I was dealing with my own feelings rather than what really is. So I will give it another go but it didn't really work for me at this point.
There were two issues that kept occurring to me while I was away from this process. The first was that perhaps I have been expecting too much - some kind of huge sense of life changing enlightenment. It's very easy to find lots of people who say that the knowledge of no self is life-changing, with a huge sense of connectedness to everything - everything looks more beautiful and the colors are brighter and every experience better, but I myself have no real reason to expect this because I have no evidence for it from my senses. I have flashes of feeling my connectedness to everything or of feeling the true beauty and simplicity that life is but they are only flashes, yet many people promote the idea of seeing no self as something that irrevocably changes everything forever. I think many people want to believe this, but I find that I don't want to believe anything.
I don't need or desire the Earth shattering experience and have no reason to believe that it can happen to me, but perhaps the seeing of no self has happened and this is all it's ever really going to be - that I'm not going to imbue it with some almost religious like enlightenment and that it just is what it is. All I'm really experiencing is that there's nothing that can be known, no old values that can really be still held. Old motivations and old desires are valueless there is only what is.
Yet of course all values are still there, if someone punched me on the nose I would instinctively be furious and want to take action, yet my belief now seems to be that I could have been in their shoes - it's that fatalistic belief of nobody controls their destiny.
And this is the second issue that kept coming up - if there is no self is there any point in attempting to exert free will at all?I think this could lead me to become very fatalistic.
Lucy
Re: Discovery
Hi Lucy, lovely to hear from you!
Right! Feelings beeing unconscious and defended against is many times the main obstacle, so it gets lots of space. But if it doesn't appeal right now, let it go without hesitation! You can always return.
Maybe look into when is there more access to a sense of underlying peace and appreciation and equanimity? Can you find anything else then shifting external circumstances?
Maybe seeing through separate self has happened. Let's investigate. How do you experience self or sense of self these days? How do you experience control and agency in everyday life? Asking you to describe rather then explain, as experience near as possible.
2) When you say the fatalistic belief that nobody controls their agency, this gives me a sense maybe we need to explore more. The reason is, this is not about getting to BELIEVE in no-self and no-agency. These beliefs will not give peace and can do as much damage as beliefs in a separate self and control can do. What we aim for is a direct EXPERIENCE beyond doubt that there is no separate self and no agency. The experience is beyond and before words. Words just come after to describe it. Have had a moment of seeing it clearly?
Right exactly! When there is a BELIEF in no-free will it can co-opt all unconscious dispositions towards negativity, disengagement, hopelessness, etc. When the belief in a separate self is clearly seen through, it feels like freedom and openness not like any kind of negative fatalism or nihilism. That doesn't make sense to the rational thought - and seeing doesn't take place in rational thought. Seeing happens, is not done but happens, then words come and describe it.
Let me know what is seen and felt and understood in reading this.
I looked at some of Vince's videos but found there were a lot of people talking about how they felt and this is what made me withdraw from this process for a while, that sense that I was dealing with my own feelings rather than what really is. So I will give it another go but it didn't really work for me at this point.
Right! Feelings beeing unconscious and defended against is many times the main obstacle, so it gets lots of space. But if it doesn't appeal right now, let it go without hesitation! You can always return.
This is great, not wanting to believe anything. Stay with personal experience.There were two issues that kept occurring to me while I was away from this process. The first was that perhaps I have been expecting too much - some kind of huge sense of life changing enlightenment. It's very easy to find lots of people who say that the knowledge of no self is life-changing, with a huge sense of connectedness to everything - everything looks more beautiful and the colors are brighter and every experience better, but I myself have no real reason to expect this because I have no evidence for it from my senses. I have flashes of feeling my connectedness to everything or of feeling the true beauty and simplicity that life is but they are only flashes, yet many people promote the idea of seeing no self as something that irrevocably changes everything forever. I think many people want to believe this, but I find that I don't want to believe anything.
Maybe look into when is there more access to a sense of underlying peace and appreciation and equanimity? Can you find anything else then shifting external circumstances?
I don't need or desire the Earth shattering experience and have no reason to believe that it can happen to me, but perhaps the seeing of no self has happened and this is all it's ever really going to be - that I'm not going to imbue it with some almost religious like enlightenment and that it just is what it is. All I'm really experiencing is that there's nothing that can be known, no old values that can really be still held. Old motivations and old desires are valueless there is only what is.
Maybe seeing through separate self has happened. Let's investigate. How do you experience self or sense of self these days? How do you experience control and agency in everyday life? Asking you to describe rather then explain, as experience near as possible.
1) Right, normal behavior doesn't stop with seeing through the belief in self.Yet of course all values are still there, if someone punched me on the nose I would instinctively be furious and want to take action, yet my belief now seems to be that I could have been in their shoes - it's that fatalistic belief of nobody controls their destiny.
2) When you say the fatalistic belief that nobody controls their agency, this gives me a sense maybe we need to explore more. The reason is, this is not about getting to BELIEVE in no-self and no-agency. These beliefs will not give peace and can do as much damage as beliefs in a separate self and control can do. What we aim for is a direct EXPERIENCE beyond doubt that there is no separate self and no agency. The experience is beyond and before words. Words just come after to describe it. Have had a moment of seeing it clearly?
And this is the second issue that kept coming up - if there is no self is there any point in attempting to exert free will at all?I think this could lead me to become very fatalistic.
Right exactly! When there is a BELIEF in no-free will it can co-opt all unconscious dispositions towards negativity, disengagement, hopelessness, etc. When the belief in a separate self is clearly seen through, it feels like freedom and openness not like any kind of negative fatalism or nihilism. That doesn't make sense to the rational thought - and seeing doesn't take place in rational thought. Seeing happens, is not done but happens, then words come and describe it.
Let me know what is seen and felt and understood in reading this.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
No I do mean that I can see that there is no agency. What I used to see as thinking a lot and making decisions I now see as there are thoughts and then there is action. I don't see a connection between these things I think the thoughts could be dispensed with.
Life is happening and I have awareness of it.I see no more real agency than that. And I know what you mean, I feel more relaxed and more calm and definitely more compassionate now that I have seen this.
Where there is no self there is no belief but as you say normal behaviour doesn't stop when you see no self. I can certainly see that without a self to defend life feels much better, but does no self mean that this normal everyday life can only be lived in a spirit of 'oh well let's wait and see'. Is it really just sit back and watch what happens?
I feel like I shouldn't really be thinking about this anymore so I suppose I was just asking, have I possibly seen no self and I'm just not doing the thing that other people are doing of believing that it's like some kind of religious revelation or have I not seen it? And I can't find the answer to this question.
Life is happening and I have awareness of it.I see no more real agency than that. And I know what you mean, I feel more relaxed and more calm and definitely more compassionate now that I have seen this.
Where there is no self there is no belief but as you say normal behaviour doesn't stop when you see no self. I can certainly see that without a self to defend life feels much better, but does no self mean that this normal everyday life can only be lived in a spirit of 'oh well let's wait and see'. Is it really just sit back and watch what happens?
I feel like I shouldn't really be thinking about this anymore so I suppose I was just asking, have I possibly seen no self and I'm just not doing the thing that other people are doing of believing that it's like some kind of religious revelation or have I not seen it? And I can't find the answer to this question.
Re: Discovery
Hi :)
Ask your self this, and don't accept thought answers, really FEEL and LOOK to have the answer from inside. It will benefit to work with this wholeheartedly.
My clear intuition is it will benefit to look at this and look for a resolution of this question from inside, and deeper then just an intellectual conviction.
So keep looking at:
1) Is it clear beyond doubt that there is no self, no agency?
2) Does it mean life will be passive, laizes faire, disengaged?
Ask again and again and LOOK/FEEL until it is known from inside at a level deeper than intellectual conviction.
but does no self mean that this normal everyday life can only be lived in a spirit of 'oh well let's wait and see'. Is it really just sit back and watch what happens?
Ask your self this, and don't accept thought answers, really FEEL and LOOK to have the answer from inside. It will benefit to work with this wholeheartedly.
I feel like I shouldn't really be thinking about this anymore so I suppose I was just asking, have I possibly seen no self and I'm just not doing the thing that other people are doing of believing that it's like some kind of religious revelation or have I not seen it? And I can't find the answer to this question.
My clear intuition is it will benefit to look at this and look for a resolution of this question from inside, and deeper then just an intellectual conviction.
So keep looking at:
1) Is it clear beyond doubt that there is no self, no agency?
2) Does it mean life will be passive, laizes faire, disengaged?
Ask again and again and LOOK/FEEL until it is known from inside at a level deeper than intellectual conviction.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
Hint: Show me this self that can only just sit back and see what happens or can also be active! Where is it?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
Hi Elad, sorry for the delay but I have really been dwelling with it. I think your last question really highlights my issue. I really can find no self and in particular no agency whatsoever but on a day-to-day basis I can also still find all my old neuroses and my personality and my habitual behaviour.
if I think about this I find it virtually impossible to marry the ideas of no self and the living of my normal day-to-day life, however if I just feel it I can comfortably feel I'm just witnessing experience and life is floating along with absolutely no agency for me. I can still have the illusion of choices, I can still try to be happy or try to be sad, but in reality life is happening and I'm a witness to that and the reflection of that in every day life is that I can carry on doing what I do knowing that where I am now wasn't based on any plans or agency and what comes in the future won't be either.
But I think both you and I accept that there is a day-to-day life that we carry on living and I suppose I wanted to ask you a question - how does this acceptance of no self affect your day today life. I think I may have just seen it and it just is what it is. My experience of existence is really no different. Is this your experience or is it different for you?
if I think about this I find it virtually impossible to marry the ideas of no self and the living of my normal day-to-day life, however if I just feel it I can comfortably feel I'm just witnessing experience and life is floating along with absolutely no agency for me. I can still have the illusion of choices, I can still try to be happy or try to be sad, but in reality life is happening and I'm a witness to that and the reflection of that in every day life is that I can carry on doing what I do knowing that where I am now wasn't based on any plans or agency and what comes in the future won't be either.
But I think both you and I accept that there is a day-to-day life that we carry on living and I suppose I wanted to ask you a question - how does this acceptance of no self affect your day today life. I think I may have just seen it and it just is what it is. My experience of existence is really no different. Is this your experience or is it different for you?
Re: Discovery
Hi Lucy,
For me the first big awakening experience happened at age 17 - its been a while. There was absolutely a before and after and life was not the same. After a honeymoon of a few months of peace-joy-simplicity-balance conditioning and shadow work came back with a vengeance, but still there is clearly a before and after in terms of the relationship to life and thought, a broadness, an openness, words fail... Preciously so. Liberation Unleashed process continued the process and deepened the seeing through of selfing patterns. Again, this has been a big life event and many things changed. Many also stayed the same on an external level, but there is clearly before and after. If I look at other people I have guided through and other guides I know, for the majority, this is a big shift and there is before and after. Some can hardly relate to life as it was before. Some still have a pretty normal sense of self, but it is really *experientially* easy to see that it is a limited insubstantial thought based phenomenon and that changes a lot in life. Quick or slow. The few exceptions to this amongst people I guided, I look back now and think we ended prematurely. Today I would not have encouraged to land the process there, as I did then.
Reading your words it sounds to me you have an empirically based analytical understanding of no self. By this I mean you have gathered convincing data and made up your mind it is so. And because you are very analytically/rationally dispositioned, this all ready changes life a fair bit. But the sense here is that the first shift has not happened. When that happens it is obvious a change happens, and you could never understand that through explanations, and the words I/we use after to point to it, are at best something that frustrates conventional beliefs and thinking and encourages inquiry and curiosity.
So I would recommend you to keep looking.
What is believing or not believing?
What is thinking things through?
What is seemingly acting or just witnessing?
The point is not to find an answer *or* not to find an answer. Nothing you say or conclude really is a place to stop here. The point is to ask and then be open and receptive, look and feel, with your whole being.
At some point the shift will be "given". It is grace. You cannot do it or get to understand it. You can only keep challenging the conventional level of habitual and conceptual thought with questioning and looking and feeling and then at some point, something will happen, that is beyond conceptual understanding.
For me the first big awakening experience happened at age 17 - its been a while. There was absolutely a before and after and life was not the same. After a honeymoon of a few months of peace-joy-simplicity-balance conditioning and shadow work came back with a vengeance, but still there is clearly a before and after in terms of the relationship to life and thought, a broadness, an openness, words fail... Preciously so. Liberation Unleashed process continued the process and deepened the seeing through of selfing patterns. Again, this has been a big life event and many things changed. Many also stayed the same on an external level, but there is clearly before and after. If I look at other people I have guided through and other guides I know, for the majority, this is a big shift and there is before and after. Some can hardly relate to life as it was before. Some still have a pretty normal sense of self, but it is really *experientially* easy to see that it is a limited insubstantial thought based phenomenon and that changes a lot in life. Quick or slow. The few exceptions to this amongst people I guided, I look back now and think we ended prematurely. Today I would not have encouraged to land the process there, as I did then.
Reading your words it sounds to me you have an empirically based analytical understanding of no self. By this I mean you have gathered convincing data and made up your mind it is so. And because you are very analytically/rationally dispositioned, this all ready changes life a fair bit. But the sense here is that the first shift has not happened. When that happens it is obvious a change happens, and you could never understand that through explanations, and the words I/we use after to point to it, are at best something that frustrates conventional beliefs and thinking and encourages inquiry and curiosity.
So I would recommend you to keep looking.
What is believing or not believing?
What is thinking things through?
What is seemingly acting or just witnessing?
The point is not to find an answer *or* not to find an answer. Nothing you say or conclude really is a place to stop here. The point is to ask and then be open and receptive, look and feel, with your whole being.
At some point the shift will be "given". It is grace. You cannot do it or get to understand it. You can only keep challenging the conventional level of habitual and conceptual thought with questioning and looking and feeling and then at some point, something will happen, that is beyond conceptual understanding.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
To make sure I answer properly, the vast majority of us still make a living, take care of our health and relationships, have hobbies and interests, lot of the character/personality is the same and traumas+defensive patterns are not instantly resolved. So big change is in perspective, not necessarily in external conditions, all though often they also move in some ways, fast or slow.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
Hi Elad,
can I just ask, do many people get their initial shift through using mind altering substances? Did you? Please don't think this is a judgmental question it's purely based in curiosity.
I should state that I do absolutely feel that there is no agency in life. I can happily do this job or that job, live here or there, but to me that is no different to a drip of water going left or right around a spec of dust on a window. there is no real agency and I genuinely do feel that.
And I do believe that I have created my life with my thoughts. I look out of the window and I see what are to me gardens and fences and neighbours and lots of possible incursions into my life yet I know really that none of those things are there and are all creations of thought.
Something made me very angry the other day and the anger lasted about a minute, previously I would still be carrying that anger now, weeks later. I could see that this was all just nonsense that I was creating in my head and that none of it was real. The person who had made me angry is just made of thoughts and the me that is offended is just made of thoughts. And I don't think I thought my way into this position I think I just felt it. I felt sympathy and understanding and connectedness.
My feeling is that in order to get this shift I need to believe it will happen, and I don't believe because I don't believe in anything. Like all beliefs, perhaps it is only there for people who want to believe. And perhaps this is currently the problem that I'm having with no self, even if I truly can find no evidence of self to me that is not a thing to be believed in it just is what it is. I don't see or feel why that would create the big shift, it's like no self must mean something, it must have a value. does that have to be the case, can't it just be that there is no shift. Can't it be a thing that provides no gain.
I don't believe in God but I don't really care or think or feel about it because it's unknowable. Isn't this the same, it's just we're discovering that it's all unknowable and that's all it is.
can I just ask, do many people get their initial shift through using mind altering substances? Did you? Please don't think this is a judgmental question it's purely based in curiosity.
I should state that I do absolutely feel that there is no agency in life. I can happily do this job or that job, live here or there, but to me that is no different to a drip of water going left or right around a spec of dust on a window. there is no real agency and I genuinely do feel that.
And I do believe that I have created my life with my thoughts. I look out of the window and I see what are to me gardens and fences and neighbours and lots of possible incursions into my life yet I know really that none of those things are there and are all creations of thought.
Something made me very angry the other day and the anger lasted about a minute, previously I would still be carrying that anger now, weeks later. I could see that this was all just nonsense that I was creating in my head and that none of it was real. The person who had made me angry is just made of thoughts and the me that is offended is just made of thoughts. And I don't think I thought my way into this position I think I just felt it. I felt sympathy and understanding and connectedness.
My feeling is that in order to get this shift I need to believe it will happen, and I don't believe because I don't believe in anything. Like all beliefs, perhaps it is only there for people who want to believe. And perhaps this is currently the problem that I'm having with no self, even if I truly can find no evidence of self to me that is not a thing to be believed in it just is what it is. I don't see or feel why that would create the big shift, it's like no self must mean something, it must have a value. does that have to be the case, can't it just be that there is no shift. Can't it be a thing that provides no gain.
I don't believe in God but I don't really care or think or feel about it because it's unknowable. Isn't this the same, it's just we're discovering that it's all unknowable and that's all it is.
Re: Discovery
For me substance was not involved. For many substance is not involved. For some it is.
More importantly: What you write about how life is now sounds clear and wholesome. I would like to send you the check point questions again, ok? Here they are:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER:
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER:
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past period of time since clarity came about.
ANSWER:
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any?
ANSWER:
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER:
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER:
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER:
8) Anything to add?
ANSWER
More importantly: What you write about how life is now sounds clear and wholesome. I would like to send you the check point questions again, ok? Here they are:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER:
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER:
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past period of time since clarity came about.
ANSWER:
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any?
ANSWER:
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER:
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER:
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER:
8) Anything to add?
ANSWER
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER:
It often feels to me on a day-to-day basis that there is a self but if I really examine and observe I can only find experience and everything else is mystery. I can find no past nor no future, only now, and everything I thought I knew about the self was based in past and future. now I can only find the moment and in the moment self no longer exists.
If I can find no past, I can find no former self, there is only what is experienced now.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER:
I feel the separate self is something that is believed to exist outside of the current moment, that there was a me that was shaped by a past that will exist in the future. The Illusion is that there is an individual and inevitable me that must have been shaped by all of my past. This illusion makes you feel that you are the centre of the Universe rather than just witnessing.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past period of time since clarity came about.
ANSWER:
It can be quite freeing, making one less judgemental and more compassionate because you try and avoid using that self based judgment on what is going on around you. It can also take away a lot of fear and desire, as they are all based in a belief that the self needs or deserves certain things. It takes away that feeling that there is a right way for life to be and that you should struggle against it if it is not like that.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any?
ANSWER:
I can't really say I feel like I've had a moment of shift, it feels more like a gradual clarity of sight.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER:
It can feel like I make decisions all the time, where to work, where to live, etc. but now I see these decisions as illusion. I have thought and then things happen but there is no real connection. for example none of the way my life is has been planned. it feels like I've made decisions but where I am now has actually all just happened. It is like believing that water chooses which way to run down a hill.
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER:
I've absolutely no idea what makes things happen but I have no evidence to believe that there is a self or me that ever makes anything happen. There is just life flowing along and I'm part of that.
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER:
I have no sense that I can affect or change anything so I have no responsibility for anything.
I don't mean this in a nihilstic way I just mean that I accept I'm not responsible, life is what it is and I can't choose what I'm experiencing, I can only accept it.
8) Anything to add?
ANSWER
I feel a bit like existence is a bit of a landslide and we're all just bumping along unable to change things. my self illusion has been like I'm just clinging to the top of the hill with everything I have, not wanting to let go. Better to just let go and enjoy the ride and get where we're all going, to just experience and accept a flow of life that we're all part of.
ANSWER:
It often feels to me on a day-to-day basis that there is a self but if I really examine and observe I can only find experience and everything else is mystery. I can find no past nor no future, only now, and everything I thought I knew about the self was based in past and future. now I can only find the moment and in the moment self no longer exists.
If I can find no past, I can find no former self, there is only what is experienced now.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER:
I feel the separate self is something that is believed to exist outside of the current moment, that there was a me that was shaped by a past that will exist in the future. The Illusion is that there is an individual and inevitable me that must have been shaped by all of my past. This illusion makes you feel that you are the centre of the Universe rather than just witnessing.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past period of time since clarity came about.
ANSWER:
It can be quite freeing, making one less judgemental and more compassionate because you try and avoid using that self based judgment on what is going on around you. It can also take away a lot of fear and desire, as they are all based in a belief that the self needs or deserves certain things. It takes away that feeling that there is a right way for life to be and that you should struggle against it if it is not like that.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any?
ANSWER:
I can't really say I feel like I've had a moment of shift, it feels more like a gradual clarity of sight.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER:
It can feel like I make decisions all the time, where to work, where to live, etc. but now I see these decisions as illusion. I have thought and then things happen but there is no real connection. for example none of the way my life is has been planned. it feels like I've made decisions but where I am now has actually all just happened. It is like believing that water chooses which way to run down a hill.
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER:
I've absolutely no idea what makes things happen but I have no evidence to believe that there is a self or me that ever makes anything happen. There is just life flowing along and I'm part of that.
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER:
I have no sense that I can affect or change anything so I have no responsibility for anything.
I don't mean this in a nihilstic way I just mean that I accept I'm not responsible, life is what it is and I can't choose what I'm experiencing, I can only accept it.
8) Anything to add?
ANSWER
I feel a bit like existence is a bit of a landslide and we're all just bumping along unable to change things. my self illusion has been like I'm just clinging to the top of the hill with everything I have, not wanting to let go. Better to just let go and enjoy the ride and get where we're all going, to just experience and accept a flow of life that we're all part of.
Re: Discovery
Hi Lucy,
Thank you, I feel you express very clear what you experience. It does not feel clear to me to what degree what you describe is experienced as a belief or is experiential and clear. Certainly it sounds like the sense of self is there most of the time, and experienced as if it is real.
I have a few questions for you. We have worked together for quite a while now, and I am happy to continue for as long as it makes sense. I do want to check in with you:
1) Is the sense of the self there most of the time? Is it ever not there? How real does it seem to you?
2) These changes you speak of (it *can* be freeing, it *can* be more compassionate and less judgemental, etc.). Say more about that please. How often is it so? For how long at time? When is it so and when is it not so?
3) Do you feel a wish/need to seek for a deeper/clearer realization? Is there a wish to seek and find something else?
4) Is there anything with regards to seeing through self you would like my help with exploring?
Thank you, I feel you express very clear what you experience. It does not feel clear to me to what degree what you describe is experienced as a belief or is experiential and clear. Certainly it sounds like the sense of self is there most of the time, and experienced as if it is real.
I have a few questions for you. We have worked together for quite a while now, and I am happy to continue for as long as it makes sense. I do want to check in with you:
1) Is the sense of the self there most of the time? Is it ever not there? How real does it seem to you?
2) These changes you speak of (it *can* be freeing, it *can* be more compassionate and less judgemental, etc.). Say more about that please. How often is it so? For how long at time? When is it so and when is it not so?
3) Do you feel a wish/need to seek for a deeper/clearer realization? Is there a wish to seek and find something else?
4) Is there anything with regards to seeing through self you would like my help with exploring?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Discovery
Hi Elad,
Sorry for the delay, I've had the most shocking run of migraines
things are a bit less bleak now though so I will dwell with these questions for a while
Lucy
Sorry for the delay, I've had the most shocking run of migraines
things are a bit less bleak now though so I will dwell with these questions for a while
Lucy
Re: Discovery
Oi, that sounds rough! Take all the time you need.Hi Elad,
Sorry for the delay, I've had the most shocking run of migraines
things are a bit less bleak now though so I will dwell with these questions for a while
Lucy
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
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