The Gate

Morning Henri!

It's been an interesting last few days of practice. In some ways, I don't really know what to do with myself. I'm still working on concentration and gathering the mind while sitting but I'm not sure what direction to look with inquiry.

The confusion leads to doubt which leads to sadness/hopelessness, and while I am able to see the way this unfolds more clearly than before, I think my hope/expectation was to de-power this old mental habit a bit more via this process.

I have been able to catch myself in strong mind states like anxiety, crankiness, doubt, etc and see that there is a thing there that is untouched by any of that, and that brings a sense of relief in that moment. I think it's a continued looking and practice I need to do around those patterns from here, as I think you have mentioned, it takes time to slow that habitual energy.

Still wouldn't say I feel positive I've had anything like an a-ha realization or how I've read it to be previously, but idk what's left to be pointed to. I know I want to keep going on the path, but what direction?


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The confusion leads to doubt which leads to sadness/hopelessness, and while I am able to see the way this unfolds more clearly than before, I think my hope/expectation was to de-power this old mental habit a bit more via this process.

Seeing that there is no doer rarely fixes conditioning. That's what happens after first awakening when the emotional/shadow work starts (and is often more effective because it doesn't feel so personal).

Still wouldn't say I feel positive I've had anything like an a-ha realization or how I've read it to be previously, but idk what's left to be pointed to. I know I want to keep going on the path, but what direction?

Has there been any kind of shift in regard to seeing there's no separate self? It could've even happened before our conversation.

Has there been any kind of shift in regard to seeing there's no separate self? It could've even happened before our conversation.

Silly question, but how would I know? I've touched into some self-less spaces in prior meditative work, but that was a few years ago and then I rolled up the mat. Is it possible to have seen through it and then forgotten intellectually?


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Silly question, but how would I know? I've touched into some self-less spaces in prior meditative work, but that was a few years ago and then I rolled up the mat. Is it possible to have seen through it and then forgotten intellectually?

I think so, although often it's quite a clear shift. I remember Angelo saying a few times that when he talks to people, some have already seen through the illusion of separate self but it was so obvious and mundane and non-special that they just forgot about it.

So when you go about your day and you get caught up in anxiety, maybe after the fact, is it obvious to you that there is no inherent self having anxiety or controlling any of it?

The illusion of self may well pop up many times as old conditioning comes up, but there is freedom there, because you've experienced that there is no "I" in control.

So when you go about your day and you get caught up in anxiety, maybe after the fact, is it obvious to you that there is no inherent self having anxiety or controlling any of it?

The illusion of self may well pop up many times as old conditioning comes up, but there is freedom there, because you've experienced that there is no "I" in control.

It feels like any time I am "aware" then it is obvious nothing is in charge, there is no self, thing are just where they are. Like in my last post, when I snap out of an episode of anxiety or frustration, it's simple and obvious to see there is nothing that "IS" anxious or frustrated. And this usually makes me laugh.

But I don't quite understand the nature of "forgetting". If I am "not aware" then yeah, it feels like the self is at the wheel and is the thing that is anxious or frustrated.


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It feels like any time I am "aware" then it is obvious nothing is in charge, there is no self, thing are just where they are. Like in my last post, when I snap out of an episode of anxiety or frustration, it's simple and obvious to see there is nothing that "IS" anxious or frustrated. And this usually makes me laugh.

The anxiety and frustration is covered in the next step in reactivity, where you look for what makes you react.

But I don't quite understand the nature of "forgetting". If I am "not aware" then yeah, it feels like the self is at the wheel and is the thing that is anxious or frustrated.

You may want to listen to Ilona's video again if it resonates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

What I've noticed is the forgetting happens when you're triggered/react. This is the next layer of selfing. It can sometimes feel like you're back to old ways, yet if you remember back to when you didn't have an inkling of self/no self, you will see the difference.

You can be happily bumbling along, like in your meditation, and suddenly you are confused, then sadness/hopelessness. It is these reactions and emotions that are explored next.

Also notice that having expectations and shoulds on how this should be and what it should look like adds another layer of suffering.

What if this process, the way it is for you, is okay?

Each path to waking up is unique, so trust your own experience. No need to compare to anyone else.

Hi Henri,

With your descriptions, I think I am open to exploring what is "next". I don't feel "done", but I think I could answer the closing questions.

it is definitely difficult to accept that the way this process is is "okay" for me, for a number of reasons. If exploring that creation of mind comes next, that would be very helpful. I see a long, recurring pattern of "practice, think I understand, lose faith that I understood, shame/embarrassment, walk away, come back to practice, repeat".

There's no need to rush if you don't feel done.

If you're interested, I'd like to explore what your expectations are for seeing through inherent self.

What will happen when you've seen through the illusion of self? What does done mean?

I want you to include all the silly, simple, and seemingly stupid answers. Everything that comes up.

This exercise has two parts. One is normal writing and one is freewriting.

1) Write down everything you want and expect from this. This is just normal writing.

2) Freewrite for 10-15 minutes 2-3 times (this could be over a few days) about what you want from waking up. Freewriting means you write non-stop for 10-15 minutes without censoring yourself. No editing, no stopping to think, just writing. Most of it may be gibberish, but there may be a few nuggets.

If you don't know what to write, just write whatever comes to mind, such as 'bla bla bla'.

Don't post the whole chunk here, but simply share what you found.

Let me know if you have any questions on this.

it is definitely difficult to accept that the way this process is is "okay" for me, for a number of reasons.

Yes, there is resistance, and this resistance is avoiding feeling something. Do you notice what you're avoiding?

Hi Henri - here's what I've got:

First part:

I have read a lot about how awakening reduces the suffering one experiences in their daily life. A lot of enticing descriptions are used for things I interpret as "states", like flow, unbounded, freedom, ease, clarity, and I want to be able to experience that for myself.

I do believe that the way my mind creates perceptions must be leading to "untruth" via predispositions, assumptions, limited information, and so on. Reading about cessations, gestalt shifts, makes me curious to know what my brain is hiding from me, so to speak.

Also, from my addiction history, I know that when I drank, it's like the unsure, discursive, self-judging, internal narrative would go away, and I felt free and unencumbered and gregarious and just not hampered down by my constant churning intellect/mind narrative. I have a hope that disembedding from the mind perspective could lead me to a place where I am not so involved in and driven by that mental churn.

There is also hope or expectation that there will be an a-ha moment or fireworks or something that I can't explain. Something beyond my limited comprehension, witnessed soberly and clearly, that I will be able to know and remember BEYOND DOUBT that I can take as a touchpoint... something solid... tangible, to let me know this path is real, and I'm not wasting my time.

Right now, it feels like "This is it?" in a bad way, and I want to feel like "This is it!" in a good way.

Second part:
1. I want waking up to free me from the dissatisfaction I generate about my own experience
2. I want some fireworks, I want something discrete, I want a clear sea change moment
3. I want faith, I want to know this is real. I want to know it can be real FOR ME. I want to know I am doing well, I want milestones. I want to know I can do it, or I want to know I am doing it.
4. I want to know the path is real, different to me than Christianity, which was my childhood and feels like a human-generated and human-maintained power structure masquerading as a religion.
5. I want to feel free from the constant mental narration, judging, second-guessing that prevents a clear interface between input and action. I want to decrease the latency between me being asked to act, and me knowing what my true alignment with that action is.

Good stuff! Thank you for your honesty here, Geoff.

I have read a lot about how awakening reduces the suffering one experiences in their daily life. A lot of enticing descriptions are used for things I interpret as "states", like flow, unbounded, freedom, ease, clarity, and I want to be able to experience that for myself.

It can be treacherous to listen to others, because it's unclear if they're still in the honeymoon period of first awakening, or if they've moved to deeper realization, such as emotional work, or non-dual / perceptual shifts, all of which tends to lead to trauma/emotional material surfacing and needing to be dealt with.

It can also be that they're embellishing their experience in order to get views and attention.

Some people have no honeymoon period at all. I didn't really have one. I dove into reactivity / emotional work right away, and it was only after the emotional work that there was more peace, joy, and so on.

That said, even as I write this, there's a sadness being processed. The difference is that it's not a problem or taken to mean something.

There is also hope or expectation that there will be an a-ha moment or fireworks or something that I can't explain. Something beyond my limited comprehension, witnessed soberly and clearly, that I will be able to know and remember BEYOND DOUBT that I can take as a touchpoint... something solid... tangible, to let me know this path is real, and I'm not wasting my time.

I don't think you can waste time on this path even if you don't wake up. The wasting time thought is a distraction of a feeling in the body.

Right now, it feels like "This is it?" in a bad way, and I want to feel like "This is it!" in a good way.

I highly recommend this video (timestamped to last 8 min): https://youtu.be/xT9EeJD9sFU?si=ELX-UqC2qgUgSDVF&t=1561

5. I want to feel free from the constant mental narration, judging, second-guessing that prevents a clear interface between input and action. I want to decrease the latency between me being asked to act, and me knowing what my true alignment with that action is.

Reading your answers keeps bringing up 'emotional work' for me, especially with your addiction background. This is also why I recommended EMDR with a therapist or VirtualEMDR.com.

We started exploring some of the emotions in the beginning, then we focused more on identity, and now we're back with emotions.

The mental narration, judging, second-guessing is an escape from feeling. There's something in the body that feels unsafe to feel, so thoughts come to the rescue.

Even the "I'm not getting this" is a distraction, and the "I want something concrete."

I've noticed that whatever is most prominent is the next step in inquiry.

Emotional work also doesn't mean you have to stop inquiring into the self. I've always done both at the same time. I did almost 20 years of emotional work before seeing through the self, so this has always been natural for me.

What I've noticed when guiding is that most want to avoid emotions. They'd rather inquire into the self, because it has become comfortable and safe.

Let me know if any of this rings true.

Morning Henri!

It can be treacherous to listen to others, because it's unclear if they're still in the honeymoon period of first awakening, or if they've moved to deeper realization, such as emotional work, or non-dual / perceptual shifts, all of which tends to lead to trauma/emotional material surfacing and needing to be dealt with.

It can also be that they're embellishing their experience in order to get views and attention.

Some people have no honeymoon period at all. I didn't really have one. I dove into reactivity / emotional work right away, and it was only after the emotional work that there was more peace, joy, and so on.

That said, even as I write this, there's a sadness being processed. The difference is that it's not a problem or taken to mean something.

This all makes sense to me.

I highly recommend this video (timestamped to last 8 min): https://youtu.be/xT9EeJD9sFU?si=ELX-UqC2qgUgSDVF&t=1561

I watched this a few days ago but can't remember exactly what I thought of it - I will watch again this morning and report back.

Reading your answers keeps bringing up 'emotional work' for me, especially with your addiction background. This is also why I recommended EMDR with a therapist or VirtualEMDR.com.

We started exploring some of the emotions in the beginning, then we focused more on identity, and now we're back with emotions.

The mental narration, judging, second-guessing is an escape from feeling. There's something in the body that feels unsafe to feel, so thoughts come to the rescue.

Even the "I'm not getting this" is a distraction, and the "I want something concrete."

I've noticed that whatever is most prominent is the next step in inquiry.

Emotional work also doesn't mean you have to stop inquiring into the self. I've always done both at the same time. I did almost 20 years of emotional work before seeing through the self, so this has always been natural for me.

What I've noticed when guiding is that most want to avoid emotions. They'd rather inquire into the self, because it has become comfortable and safe.

Let me know if any of this rings true.

I am still on a waitlist for a local EMDR place - still interested in trying that out when a slot opens up. I'm a big believer (for me) that in-person therapy is sort of required, esp. because I am an internet nerd, so hiding behind text boxes and screens is sort of a comfort place.

I agree that what I call my "learned helplessness" pattern of "I can't, I won't, I will never" is some sort of escape. This weekend I was getting some thoughts from a few spiritual friends of mine and one says their teacher calls this perspective "The Pride of Inadequacy" or something like that. It's a form of narcissism... which relates to my parents, so this is an angle I'm looking forward to discussing with my therapist this week.

Another friend says:

I am not sure, of course, as I don't pretend to be in your head and heart thoroughly and persistently enough to know, but it sounds like there is some inquiry to be done around the difference between "doubt" and "not really wanting." Are they the same thing, precisely? Or is one causing the other? It is a fundamental question, I think. Because if you really do want to awaken but are plagued by doubts, then that articulation is not the same thing as not strongly "wanting" to awaken. But if your doubts are arising, conversely, because you really don't want to be doing this path at this time at all, then that is a very different animal.

Given how many years I've been doing this and the way I know I am "stuck" in the karmic orbit of "the path", I think I can start to weaken the perspective that I'm not meant for the path, or that I am somehow especially excluded from it. So I think I can stop wrestling over this "do I want it enough?" question, and look at it more as you are saying -- recurring thought content generated by a process of avoidance, fear, dissociation, whatever it is.

On the cushion I have been focusing a bit on just straight noting -- see/hear/feel (and sometimes "unknown) but with a special focus to noticing see/hear/feel when it comes to mental thoughts/states. For cushion practice, getting better at noticing what is and isn't a thought/when it appears seems like a big gap of mine.

I do want to keep doing inquiry but agree that this recurring emotional blocker has once again recurred, and so should get some focus time w/ the emotional work as well.

I am still on a waitlist for a local EMDR place - still interested in trying that out when a slot opens up. I'm a big believer (for me) that in-person therapy is sort of required, esp. because I am an internet nerd, so hiding behind text boxes and screens is sort of a comfort place.

Understood. That sounds wise!

I agree that what I call my "learned helplessness" pattern of "I can't, I won't, I will never" is some sort of escape. This weekend I was getting some thoughts from a few spiritual friends of mine and one says their teacher calls this perspective "The Pride of Inadequacy" or something like that. It's a form of narcissism... which relates to my parents, so this is an angle I'm looking forward to discussing with my therapist this week.

You could start becoming curious about what exactly you're avoiding feeling when these stories of helplessness come up.

Another friend says:
I am not sure, of course, as I don't pretend to be in your head and heart thoroughly and persistently enough to know, but it sounds like there is some inquiry to be done around the difference between "doubt" and "not really wanting." Are they the same thing, precisely? Or is one causing the other? It is a fundamental question, I think. Because if you really do want to awaken but are plagued by doubts, then that articulation is not the same thing as not strongly "wanting" to awaken. But if your doubts are arising, conversely, because you really don't want to be doing this path at this time at all, then that is a very different animal.

Yup, well said.

EMDR might help shake loose what's going on there.

Also might be helpful to shift your perspective on awakening: See first awakening as not a on/off thing, but a gradual process. Some that wake up have a lot of trouble with doubt and thinking after first awakening. Some deal with the thinking obstacle first and then they wake up. So in whatever way it happens for you doesn't really matter. All that matters is facing what is arising.

Given how many years I've been doing this and the way I know I am "stuck" in the karmic orbit of "the path", I think I can start to weaken the perspective that I'm not meant for the path, or that I am somehow especially excluded from it. So I think I can stop wrestling over this "do I want it enough?" question, and look at it more as you are saying -- recurring thought content generated by a process of avoidance, fear, dissociation, whatever it is.

Yes, exactly. Don't take the thought content/story to mean anything other than that it is a distraction from something.

I recently published my journey to awakening if you're interested in seeing the whole process: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/journey-to-awakening/

On the cushion I have been focusing a bit on just straight noting -- see/hear/feel (and sometimes "unknown) but with a special focus to noticing see/hear/feel when it comes to mental thoughts/states. For cushion practice, getting better at noticing what is and isn't a thought/when it appears seems like a big gap of mine.

That's great if it's a gap. Noting practice will help clarify how everything comes together.

It also helps show how impermanent everything is. A 'feeling' is sensations that blip in and out of existence at great speed. The sense of self is sensations coming and going while there's attention jumping to the head, chest, and so on, while thoughts label.

I do want to keep doing inquiry but agree that this recurring emotional blocker has once again recurred, and so should get some focus time w/ the emotional work as well.

At this point I don't have a lot of pointers to give as we've gone through most of them. You can also go back in the thread to re-do exercises if that resonates.

We can still keep this thread open so you can ask questions, explore stuckness, or just share what's going on.

I would recommend exploring the emotional stuff. You also have Kiloby Inquiries practitioners you could talk to that could help you explore it in a more somatic inquiry way.

I'm pretty sure you could pass the final questions, but I'm in no hurry.

How do you want to proceed? Anything in particular that resonates?

Yup, well said.

EMDR might help shake loose what's going on there.

Also might be helpful to shift your perspective on awakening: See first awakening as not a on/off thing, but a gradual process. Some that wake up have a lot of trouble with doubt and thinking after first awakening. Some deal with the thinking obstacle first and then they wake up. So in whatever way it happens for you doesn't really matter. All that matters is facing what is arising.

I think I am finding that a shift from goal-orientation to presence-orientation is what's needed. If I want to be on this path, I am going to be on this path my entire life. Holding myself to future goals is going to burn me out and keep me from deep connection with this present moment.

Yes, exactly. Don't take the thought content/story to mean anything other than that it is a distraction from something.

I recently published my journey to awakening if you're interested in seeing the whole process: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/journey-to-awakening/

Thank you for sharing this! You and I probably orbited around some similar circles around similar times, with the pragmatic dharma and TMI focus. Also I was surprised to hear you had your awakening so recently! You really seem like you've got this well-digested.

At this point I don't have a lot of pointers to give as we've gone through most of them. You can also go back in the thread to re-do exercises if that resonates.

We can still keep this thread open so you can ask questions, explore stuckness, or just share what's going on.

I would recommend exploring the emotional stuff. You also have Kiloby Inquiries practitioners you could talk to that could help you explore it in a more somatic inquiry way.

I'm pretty sure you could pass the final questions, but I'm in no hurry.

How do you want to proceed? Anything in particular that resonates?

I was reading a book about Rinzai Zen and they were talking about how a student may "have" kensho but have to spend additional time integrating and unblocking the emotional things that keep them from Living in that realization, which is exactly what you've been telling me ;)

From here, my plan is to focus on intention-setting, "mind training", and sort of... tilling the soil of my practice landscape to make it more fertile for actual practice and inquiry. While still doing practice and inquiry, of course. I am also going to explore some in-person sanghas in my city, in hopes to.. shift my life to accommodate practice more, rather than slipping practice in and out of my life at my own conveniences.

I think I'd be interested in trying the final questions to see if there is anything there obviously unseen on my end in the scope of LU and this interaction.

I think I am finding that a shift from goal-orientation to presence-orientation is what's needed. If I want to be on this path, I am going to be on this path my entire life. Holding myself to future goals is going to burn me out and keep me from deep connection with this present moment.

Yes, that sounds excellent. Anything about future is just another distraction.

Thank you for sharing this! You and I probably orbited around some similar circles around similar times, with the pragmatic dharma and TMI focus. Also I was surprised to hear you had your awakening so recently! You really seem like you've got this well-digested.

Glad you enjoyed it!

I've done emotional work for two decades now, and as I wrote, I've been exploring surrender and following my intuition for a long time so that may have helped. And spending time in the dark night for years helped drive home many realizations.

I was reading a book about Rinzai Zen and they were talking about how a student may "have" kensho but have to spend additional time integrating and unblocking the emotional things that keep them from Living in that realization, which is exactly what you've been telling me ;)

From here, my plan is to focus on intention-setting, "mind training", and sort of... tilling the soil of my practice landscape to make it more fertile for actual practice and inquiry. While still doing practice and inquiry, of course. I am also going to explore some in-person sanghas in my city, in hopes to.. shift my life to accommodate practice more, rather than slipping practice in and out of my life at my own conveniences.

Yes, this feels true to me from what I've seen.

That all sounds good.

I think I'd be interested in trying the final questions to see if there is anything there obviously unseen on my end in the scope of LU and this interaction.

Alright. I will post the questions in the next post.