Introduction

[WesleySPK]

Hi Steve,

The negative stuff is likely to be what Ilona refers to as "falling" - where mental structures are dissolving. The mind tries to make sense of it, but ultimately it can't, and that's where the fear comes from. It seems to unfold slowly and naturally for many people, and others get full-blown dark night of the soul, and everything in between. I was on the easy end of the scale. Once we've completed the formalities you can join online groups where you can get a wider perspective than I can give from people who have been through it.

Hmm. Well I suppose I can make peace with not understanding it, it's just that my mind what's to know which direction to go towards. I could spend more time going on peaceful walks and sitting and meditating and let my energy go more towards that spaciousness, but I also am afraid if I'm not careful I'll experience the anxiety and existential dread I did before. That would be nice to join the online groups and have a wider perspective. I'm interested in anything that can deepen this and keep the process going.

I have a friend who loves drinking beer, having barbecues, mucking about with cars, and spending time with his family. The only problem in his life is his weight. He's a great believer in science and thinks religion is nonsense. He's been reading Sam Harris books. I told him about "no self" and he said it all sounds perfectly obvious to him. Seems like some people don't need as much help as we do.

That's interesting. Well I like being able to relate to other people on those levels still, without having some division between "spiritual" people and "non-spiritual" people. I'm very grateful for the perspective LU gave me because I can just see people again and not relate to them through some belief system or idea in my own head.

I've been trying to get you to look so you can see that there's nothing to find. I'm no great sage, but I can't find anything. That's all I can say with any authority. You have probably looked longer and harder than I have. If you want some real authority, don't forget what the Bahiya Sutta said: In the seen, only the seen.

So...But I am not necessarily looking and inquiring like I did when I first started this. I can see I haven't found anything yet, for sure. I just want to make sure I've really covered my bases here and seen what there is to see.

This may or may not be a problem. My guess would be no. Remember that there is a big mental construct of self, and this takes years to deconstruct. "The gate" refers to the point where you see "no self" for the first time, and that is our focus. However, usually it takes a couple of weeks after that to stabilize before the client is ready to be let go of. Doubt goes away more slowly. Doubting is what the mind does.

I don't really remember the bit about the big mental construct of self taking years to deconstruct, at least from LU. Actually my impression was that it was simple in just seeing there is no self, but it's not like I would know very much about what happens afterwards. However I can say that I have definitely seen that there isn't anything to find. Those were big blows and they really flipped my seeking upside down. The doubt I have now is...Actually very little. It's more of a feint voice now that says, "am I really looking/seeing? Or am I just sort of being lazy?" But now the thoughts come and go and what's much louder is just whatever I'm doing. I feel totally absorbed in whatever I do now and occasionally the feint voice worries that I am not spacious enough, that I need to take more breaks to stop and look around.

Yes - you have got that all figured out. Great! Just focus on the gate. The advanced stuff comes later.

I think so. I still have plenty of everyday problems and I do get carried away in them (as I mentioned with being totally absorbed), but I haven't been burdened with the heaviest problem of all which is trying to get somewhere other than where I am. Thinking there is something more, and that I need to do something/work harder to get there.

It would appear that you are shifting nicely. Keep posting.

Okay. As for looking for a self or sense of self: I took a nice stroll outside of the coffee shop I was in where I wrote that lengthy post and I looked for a self at the same time as looking at what was around me. Nothing exciting, still no self and I felt peaceful and connected to my environment. I felt like more of a witness or space or whatever than a person and then I met with my friends where we had a big emotional talk. I experienced some uncomfortable emotions and feelings, and then also some very pleasant and freeing emotions, and I don't think in any of that I found a self. What I may have taken before as evidence that I wasn't enlightened or that I was indeed a self, was just a feeling or an experience to be accepted and perhaps even acted out for the purpose of release. Anyways, just to report my results in looking for a self.

This is good, definitely. Conscious vs. unconscious is not the issue per se - because body actions are generally unconscious. What we're concerned with is whether you're projecting a self belief onto what's happening. If you're not, then there's a sort of deafening silence in thought with respect to the action (in my experience, at least).

Yes, it feels much more effortless like things and my body takes care of itself. Occasionally I find myself too absorbed and I'm all the sudden acting out of a habit or pattern I don't wish to. But I cannot say I am projecting a belief that it's "me" doing it anymore, I just am not going through my day every moment consciously acknowledging "oh, there's no me doing this!" From time to time I observe that I am, say, walking, and I have no clue how I'm doing it and it happens on it's own. This is world's apart from the suffering I experienced doing things before LU where I judged and condemned myself for being unconscious and not paying attention, and then let a train of depressing thoughts spiral downwards telling me I'm not paying enough attention and therefore doing something wrong, and therefore not spiritual, a piece of shit, or whatever. I don't try to change my thoughts or my experience and sometimes I have a lot of thoughts and a lot of trivial desires. I still get stressed occasionally and am very ambitious now, but (as far as I can tell) without a self wrapped up in the ambition, such as wanting to be successful to be a bigger me who is now a successful me.

You described a weird feeling, and I said I feel similar. At the time of gating, that experience was completely new to me, but it's not new to you. So it doesn't make that much sense to compare yourself to me. I said it was subtle, so in the absence of an obvious contrast like I had, it could easily go unnoticed.

I spoke to a friend who has also done LU and we connected on noticing some similar shifts in our experience. He told me that even though he had seen there was no self, and after some extensive work with LU, he was still a sugar fiend. I laughed so hard I think because it silenced my expectations for all these things to go away/be solved by spirituality/LU.

Thanks for clarifying. And that's a good point. At the moment, I think I am okay with managing expectations. I think I have suffered enough from expectations based on other people's reported experiences and spiritual awakenings to be okay without doing that.

Thanks again for your guidance, time and effort. Very appreciative.

Wesley

[blackh]

Wesley,

Wonderful to read your story at the coffee shop!

I don't really remember the bit about the big mental construct of self taking years to deconstruct, at least from LU.

Ignore "years". Just saying that there is a fair amount of inertia there. From the LU FAQ:

"Seeing self for what it really is – a story – does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone."

I don't try to change my thoughts or my experience and sometimes I have a lot of thoughts and a lot of trivial desires. I still get stressed occasionally and am very ambitious now, but (as far as I can tell) without a self wrapped up in the ambition, such as wanting to be successful to be a bigger me who is now a successful me.

There is a model that some people use based on the ten fetters of Buddhism. In this model, the LU process deals with fetters 1-3. 4th and 5th are Desire and Ill Will/Aversion, so you shouldn't expect these to be gone after the LU process. It's not until the 8th fetter is broken that all traces of self are seen through.

I'll see if the other guides have any further questions. In the meantime, keep me posted on how you're doing.


Steve

[WesleySPK]

Hi Steve,

Wonderful to read your story at the coffee shop!

Glad you enjoyed it!

Ignore "years". Just saying that there is a fair amount of inertia there. From the LU FAQ:

"Seeing self for what it really is – a story – does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away quickly. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone."

Okay thanks for including this. I still have a lot about LU I don't know about aside from information from guides.

There is a model that some people use based on the ten fetters of Buddhism. In this model, the LU process deals with fetters 1-3. 4th and 5th are Desire and Ill Will/Aversion, so you shouldn't expect these to be gone after the LU process. It's not until the 8th fetter is broken that all traces of self are seen through.

I've actually never heard of those, at least I think.

I'll see if the other guides have any further questions. In the meantime, keep me posted on how you're doing.

Yesterday after writing the post, I continued through my day noticing a sense of ease, lightness and joy. That I can tell, when I feel joy it's more of an inner joy that isn't for any real reason. I was walking to my car about to unlock my trunk and I just smiled and almost laughed at nothing and I felt joyful. I continued about my day noticing where my sense of self was, thoughts, feelings, and so on. I was told some news later that evening that gave me that sensation of your heart dropping, but not to the most extreme degree. It was uncomfortable and my thoughts got really ramped up thinking about the issue. Despite this, I felt okay, okay in the sense that I didn't fight or deny my experience. I notice a certain resilience in my life now that seems to have taken the place of thinking about what I did wrong, or what this means about me when I'm faced with challenge and adversity. And I notice that my interest now is with emotions, relationships, and communication asI haven't necessarily seen these improve directly from a no-self realization. As I sit here now, I feel a background sense of joy that I believe has something to do with feeling empty, spacious.

Wesley

[blackh]

Wesley,

I am overjoyed to read your description of how things are going for you! This is exactly the kind of thing we expect. Days where you have 'lost it' are also to be expected. It all settles down in time. Looking is the only technique you need.

The other guides have no further questions so the official process is compete. Keep your eye on private messages on the forum. That's the little icon on the top right that looks like a letter. I will send you one, and you'll also receive one from one of the admins. The LU Aftercare group is on Facebook. If you're not on Facebook I hope you'll consider joining just for these groups. It is worth it.

This is the end of the formal guiding process on the forum, but I'm available as long as I can be of help.

I just want to leave you with something to consider: Some people say "I am awareness." We don't like this at LU. The mind will want to conceptualize your new experience. I'm suggesting you try to resist this tendency and consider that maybe you don't need to identify with anything. The Bahiya Sutta is good to refer to in this regard.

I've really enjoyed being your guide and I've learnt a huge amount. I really wanted you to get there with this inquiry, so this is truly wonderful! Of course your life isn't going to be perfect but I hope it will be better. Mine certainly has been.

I have had upheaval followed by a great improvement in my relationships with other people since the gate, and a lot of people report this. You might think a self belief is necessary for relationships, but the opposite seems true. In my opinion, the self belief is basically destructive to relationships.


Steve

[WesleySPK]

Hi Steve,

So something interesting happened. A friend of mine had asked me to call a friend of his to mentioned LU as he thought his friend would be interested in it. This man has done quite a lot of personal growth work and is much older and more experienced than I am. He asked me to tell him what LU was (which I have never been good at), and subsequently to tell him my experience of it. I noticed immediately my reluctance to actually say straight forward that it is about seeing whether a self exists or not. I sensed resistance, and began feeling uncomfortable. That grew into fear when he asked me (in what I interpreted as a authoritative tone) "let me ask you this, what is enlightenment?" I don't think the answer I gave really matters because I hate the question anyways, better to not answer it I thought, especially when someone asks in a tone that says "I don't think you are what you think you are/know what you think you know."

He proceeded to tell me the importance of doing "soul work" before "spiritual work," (soul work being emotional work, healing wounds, etc),that I am not doing soul work and am spiritual bypassing. When he said to me, "when I listen to you talk I notice fear in your voice" I felt like I was exposed which of course made me question a lot and feel confused. I felt threatened, and I felt the need to defend LU because to me it means some sort of safety. It means I can trust what I see, what is in front of me, nothing more. And so because of this I experienced a lot of dissonance in areas of my life, such as Zen practice for example, when I was told I need to do x in order to get y. I need to meditate, I need to do work, in order to grow/realize something/awaken. This doubt I think is definitely protecting me, and my first reaction is to think/say, "how do I know that? How do you know that?" And regardless of what the truth is, I feel threatened and I put it in doubt so that I don't swallow bullshit. And what I notice is that this seems to be a defense mechanism, and from there I begin thinking how it must mean that I haven't seen something, I am not complete, not through the gate, whatever. I doubt myself, I doubt what I have seen/experienced.

Anyways, it developed into a pleasant conversation actually and I discussed the fear I felt and that I was scared of him and it reminded me of my dad, how when something was said that he didn't like/threatened him, he would domineer the situation and adopt that authoritative tone in his voice similar to what this man had. It felt good to acknowledge what I felt instead of remaining in doubt/judgment of him and pushing him away to protect myself. Nevertheless as we proceeded to talk, he mentioned how he practices Zazen, and that it's said Zazen can be so difficult because it's like hiking straight up the mountain. I sort of laughed because I practiced it myself and recognize the adversity in it. However, I also had thoughts such as, "what mountain? Where is this mountain you're hiking, and how do you know sitting for 30 minutes a day will get you there? Can you reach a mountain that doesn't exist?" These type of questions I think of as an LU approach, and they are what I believe helped me let go of so many beliefs that I hid behind. For example, very early in the thread I said, "and then I came back to the present moment," to which Sandra responded something like, "how did you get out of the present moment? Where did you go? What did you do to get back?" And these type of questions really are what I believe changed a lot. But I cannot reconcile them with someone telling me there's a spiritual journey/path, I need to do emotional work, I need to do spiritual work. Despite this, I still engage in emotional work, and I have slowly warmed up to the idea of implementing a daily sitting practice, perhaps even Zazen. But the difference is that I don't think I'm climbing up a mountain, I don't want to get anywhere. I am sure there are many projections of mine in here so please feel free to bring some up/comment on them, and this is a projection I believe, but my sense was that he thought "oh LU is this heady, logical forum where people avoid real work by rationalizing and staying in their heads, and spiritual bypassing." And that's where my doubt came in, I predict what he thinks it is and I forget what I know by experience.

Anyways, I still had a good conversation and I actually opened up quite a lot and felt safer and like I trusted him. But as some time goes by, I notice my thoughts doubting him/what he said. This is exactly the same function that I have described earlier where my thoughts say, "if I don't listen to this person/follow what he says and the part of myself that likes what he says, then I am just running away. I am just avoiding something." And I begin fearing that is the case. For example, he mentioned a zen retreat coming up and said he doesn't want to sell me on it but just make it available to me, then asked what I felt in response to it. I told him I felt a vague "yes" and I felt open to it. However now that I'm off the phone and going about my day, I can tell that I have no interest in doing it. I no longer feel/think, "yes! I want to go sit that zen retreat, endure physical/emotional/mental pain for no reason that I can see!" Even though I have sat a number of zen retreats before, have practiced regularly, and have even experienced feeling completely blissful, peaceful, and surrendered for the majority of it even though I was in plenty of physical pain from sitting on a cushion for the better part of the day.

So I notice that after I open up a little like this, afterwards it seems I have to choose one or the other and whichever one I choose I will justify (this is actually a psychological theory called "justification of effort"), as it serves to reduce the dissonance between holding two contradictory ideas or cognitions. There is a similar theory about making decisions which I cannot remember the correct name for, but it says that as well as justifying and changing my attitude towards the decision I end up choosing, I will also adjust my attitude towards the one I didn't choose by casting a more negative light on it - "I don't know what I saw in that thing/person, look at how ____ it/they are, I'm glad I didn't choose that." So this happens between LU, or the type of questioning and doubting that LU does, and many other such practices. And I have no idea how to tell whether the dissonance, tension, and fear I felt during that conversation was due to my own avoidance, or if it just challenged/exposed a belief that he held - i.e., there is a spiritual path, there is a self, I have to work, I have to grow. How can I know that? If I feel fear and he doesn't, does this mean I am hiding something and he isn't? I am lying to myself and he isn't? Or could I just feel fear because I sensed a tone in his voice I read as hostile?

To better illustrate this, I remember I was practicing Zen at a time when I went and saw Eckhart Tolle speak. He was the first spiritual teacher I encountered and it was the first time I discovered anything spiritual. Here I am meditating nearly every day, sitting, "climbing straight up the mountain" so to speak, and, well, still suffering and feeling a sense of something missing in many ways. And at during the talk, he said (paraphrasing) "there is a problem with meditation if you think it is something that you do, or that you need to do it to awaken" he then joked about how many people sit and meditate for years and still feel like they aren't "there" yet, or that something is missing. So despite the fact that I was doing that, I laughed rather fully because I suppose I recognized some truth to it. Do you see what I mean here?

I know I just dropped a lot on you, but I think this is very important and relevant. I would really appreciate what you would say,as well as I would really like feedback from others on this forum that may have experienced this or something similar to it if that's possible.

Am I still not seeing something?

Am I bypassing?

Am I still protecting a self here? Or just experiencing fear?

Wesley

[blackh]

Wesley,

That's really interesting! To badly quote Jesus, ultimately all you can do is to judge a tree by its fruits.

The belief in the idea of a progressive path is a strong one. Then LU comes along and says, "there's a shortcut". My experience has confirmed this, and the same for many other people. That's why I'm here. IF this is true (and you have to decide this for yourself), then it's not surprising that a lot of people would not like the idea very much. A lot of personal investment and dare I say, identification, goes into spiritual work.

Since my LU process all the "soul work" has happened at an accelerated rate. I have had no bad effects from this, though some people have issues. These kinds of issues are the same as the ones reported throughout the traditional literature, so it's doubtful whether these could have been avoided by better soul work beforehand. Maybe you've already done all your soul work! What have you been doing all this time? Isn't life itself the perfect school for soul work?

I personally believe and my experience confirms that the belief in self is the main block to progress, and that once it's addressed, everything follows much more easily. Many people agree with this idea. A fellow LU guide tells me that in Buddha's day, stream entry (which LU claims their process is equivalent to) happened quickly. She has references from Buddhist scriptures confirming some things that LU says, so I'll get her to dig them up for you.

One problem with the question, "What is enlightenment?" is that the term is not well defined, which is why LU tends to avoid it.

Am I still not seeing something?

I think the answer is, obviously yes. The illusion has many layers.

Am I bypassing?

"No self" is a concept used to deconstruct "self". Once you deconstruct "self" you have to let go of "no self". What's left is beyond description.

"No self" can turn into bypassing. That's where the person uses the idea of not being a self to identify as an aloof witness and feel like life can't touch them. For me, the opposite has happened. "I" feel more connected with life because there is only joyful, painful, messy, difficult life - there's no thing observing it and standing apart from it.

Joey Lott had a good post about this recently (everything he writes is great stuff):

http://joeylott.com/no-self-misery/

Also Jeff Foster is big on this idea.

Am I still protecting a self here? Or just experiencing fear?

Just because you've seen through the self doesn't mean that the elaborate belief structure built on top of it is gone, so of course there will be protection of the self and fear. Ultimately all you can do is judge from your own experience.

You're talking about which view to hold... Some thoughts are useful but all beliefs are ultimately meaningless. The choice of which concept to hold on to is not as important as the mind thinks it is.

Thoughts are less important than we think they are. Without any thoughts at all, you will not walk into a tree.


Steve

[blackh]

Wesley,

Am I still not seeing something?

A better answer might be, no, because nothing is hidden. I think the issue is more to do with projecting things onto what is seen. What's really there doesn't change. Seeing through illusions is really about removing what you think is there but isn't.


Steve

[WesleySPK]

Hey Steve, thanks for the response on this. I've noticed something about this really shook me up today. I don't have time to reply tonight but I read through your post and I will reflect on it. I'll try and get back tomorrow.

Wesley

[blackh]

Wesley,

Jolly good.

I read through what you wrote once more. My answers aren't meant to be all that in-depth but may or may not point in useful directions. I haven't dealt with this stuff much, but I can point you to LU people who are active in Buddhist organizations and so they know more about how LU is perceived by people of a more traditional viewpoint.


Steve

[WesleySPK]

Hi Steve,

I read through what you wrote once more. My answers aren't meant to be all that in-depth but may or may not point in useful directions. I haven't dealt with this stuff much, but I can point you to LU people who are active in Buddhist organizations and so they know more about how LU is perceived by people of a more traditional viewpoint.

I value your perspective on the matter so thanks for your input. That'd be great, I want to continue deepening this process and that really jarred me so I'd like to get more input on it.

Also I'm sorry but I haven't had any time to respond in full and read through your first response. I likely won't be able to until Saturday night. Right now I'm just popping on real quick before bed but I am hardly awake so i'll get back when I can.

Thanks

Wesley

[WesleySPK]

Hi Steve,

A better answer might be, no, because nothing is hidden. I think the issue is more to do with projecting things onto what is seen. What's really there doesn't change. Seeing through illusions is really about removing what you think is there but isn't.

This makes a lot of sense to me right now.

To follow up, I still feel very normal and ordinary. I suffer and occasionally have days where I feel depressed and worry I am doing something wrong. But I fight it less, and it seems to come and go much quicker whereas before it seemed very sticky, my thoughts and my worries seemed to stick. I don't know if I feel like a self or a no-self, I just go through my days and sometimes I am very distracted and think I should be paying more attention, I should be more mindful, other days I feel more peaceful and connected and my mind is quieter. In no way have my human struggles and desires really gone away, yet I don't avoid them either.

My time is cut short here, so I will write some more later or pm you.

Wesley

[blackh]

Hi there Wesley,

I think I've mentioned the dream layer theory. Here's a reiteration of it.

As children we all seem to catch on to the 'self' theory that apparently does a good job of explaining the otherwise inexplicable facts of human existence. Over the years we build an elaborate belief structure on top of it. Not only am I a self, but I am a good self in this way and a bad one in that way, etc.

Crossing the gate, the self theory is seen to be false. The great edifice built on top of it has lost its foundation, but the inertia is considerable. The belief structure has lost one of its most important premises, but the logic engine of the mind hasn't crunched through all the consequences yet.

The change that has taken place is a deep one, but what we see in experience tends to reflect the surface level more. So, there's a tendency to under-value the significance of seeing through the self illusion. In the early days it can sometimes look like nothing much has changed.

Now, obviously there needs to be experiential proof that the gate has been crossed. But it won't always be there.

What I write here is based on my own experience and on what others have written.

But I fight it less, and it seems to come and go much quicker whereas before it seemed very sticky, my thoughts and my worries seemed to stick.

This is no small thing.

I don't know if I feel like a self or a no-self

I was pretty confused about this for a long time.

sometimes I am very distracted and think I should be paying more attention

Everyone seems to expect that after crossing the gate, that we shouldn't get lost in long, pointless trains of thought. For most people this doesn't reduce much. It can even be worse. I've had periods of relative quiet but right now my thoughts are going 19 to the dozen and I'm having difficulty sleeping. It's as if my thoughts are getting really pissed off that they've been so egregiously ignored these last months and are rebelling against it.

In no way have my human struggles and desires really gone away, yet I don't avoid them either.

You'll always be human of course, but this is the right attitude to take. You will see changes in all sorts of ways, and maybe often not in ways you expect. In the long term, acceptance should feed back into improvements in the personality. But in the near term things can fall apart and go backwards.

I hope that's been helpful. Please keep communicating with me as long as you need to.


Steve

[WesleySPK]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your words, they make a lot of sense and confirm my experience. At the moment I feel content with where I am and my doubt is very quiet. I'm just going to watch and see what unfolds for the time being and continue to deepen this through aftercare stuff.

Wesley