The Gate

Hi Vince,

Dianne, There are no right or wrong answers to the questions. In fact i am more interested in your experiencing as you consider them than the actual answers

dian wrote:...The disappearing of the separate self is before the thoughts come in between thoughts there is no separate self.
So you can see quite clearly how opinions (thoughts) create the story of Dianne ?

Actual experience is very basic without the story of Dianne it's just here now, what is happening here now.

That was a good experiential narrative of the coming and going of the story. . An unedited rant reveals more for us to work with than a carefully worded response.

Just as well as I feel a rant coming on with the next question.

Can you recognize the positive value of the story for describing or communicating experience. For navigating daily living ?

Yes the story is required for navigating daily living. If all is happening anyway as it would, then a person I know well could show up here and it would all be new no memory of that person and all that has been shared before (memories) with that person. No memory of this is my house and I know that chair is always there and there is the wall with all the familiar paintings and photos. That would all be new in every moment so although that would be true the thought (memory) that is there of the house and the person help to keep the story flowing. It would be stop, start, otherwise. All experiencing would be - there is something I never saw before and there is something I never saw before. There would be no flow just a new unfamiliar moment every moment.

Can you differentiate between useful story and story that results in suffering ?

Useful story is the story necessary (memories) that tell me if I put my hand in the fire it will burn is useful story. The other story of questioning why this is happening and not that, when I really wanted this to happen is a suffering story, as what is happening is what is happening.

dian wrote:...where the original idea came from I don't know.
Good noticing. Here, there is a sense of wonder at what arises (when it is considered).

No sense of wonder here yet.

dian wrote:so feel like they (thoughts) are mine but I don't bring them.

Yes, many years of conditioning will keep them feeling like they are yours. This may or may not change over time, but it seems that although they "feel" like they are yours, you don't actually claim ownership of them. Behaving as if they are yours is a useful way to interact with 'others'.

I can't see any other way to interact with others. It would be crazy to start every sentence with "please don't take anything I say as coming from me, it's all just coming on its own".

Yes, but even though you get lost in the content of thought, the moment when you recognize that this is happening, there is also the realization that you are not identified with them. That is you know that these are conditioned reflexes and not a 'you'. Is this the case ?

It comes and goes Vince hours can go by without noticing the conditioned reflex particularly when with others and only on the looking back can that be noticed.

Dianne, please consider the questions in this post, as well as; 3) How does it feel to see that there is no actual, separate Self ?

Now I'm on shaky ground. Do I know this 100%? I'm not even saying 100% of the time as I would expect that that is not possible but how does it feel to see that there is no actual separate Self? Strangely like nothing is different. The sky is still blue the trees are still green out the window, the sounds the house makes are happening as I type. The typing goes on almost by itself and the words just come. So to see there is no actual separate self is like attention is going to what is happening at the moment without any elaboration. There is no feeling of aha that's it, not even a small aha now I know. It's like at this moment this is happening and why doesn't it feel like enough.

What is the difference from before you started at LU ? Please report from the past few weeks.

The past few weeks have been a mixture of searching and an almost forcing myself to stop and notice this Now. A watching myself go about the day and just get on with it and a stopping to argue with myself about what should be and is not.

kind regards
Dianne

Good morning Dianne.

Actual experience is very basic without the story of Dianne it's just here now, what is happening here now.

Would experiencing include the thoughts that are the story as well as any response to that story ?

There would be no flow just a new unfamiliar moment every moment.

i get what you mean. Treating every moment fresh, like we imagine a newborn baby might. ..but of course there is memory and learning from what are now just thought about an experience. But if memory is seen as just more thoughts then it doesn't have to color THIS. It is only the belief, the living out of those thoughts that bring the past into NOW. In many cases this would amount to forgiveness.
So Dianne, can we have that history present as a background memory and not be sucked into it so that it interferes with that fresh outlook in the present ?

as what is happening is what is happening.

You do seem to have 'got' the 'THIS is IT' thing ?

Useful story is the story necessary (memories) that tell me if I put my hand in the fire it will burn is useful story.

Yes, and planning stories. The story that says that you will live for another year, that makes it reasonable to pay your house or car insurance is useful too. ..or story that you will be hungry tomorrow or that you are about to run out of toilet paper. All useful.

No sense of wonder here yet.

Oh, don't you wonder at how things happen ? ..or where did this thought come from ? ..or how nature works ? ..or what mysterious hole all of the pens end up in ?

It would be crazy to start every sentence with "please don't take anything I say as coming from me, it's all just coming on its own".

Yes, of course. So we will use language in the conventional way that our cult(ure) takes as normal. That doesn't mean that we believe that the words are coming from a Self though. It is just a useful part of the story.

It comes and goes Vince hours can go by without noticing the conditioned reflex particularly when with others and only on the looking back can that be noticed.

Yes, and that is fine. Every time you think or say "I think..." or "In my opinion..." we don't have to also think "..but this is not coming from a Self". Certainly if what arises is a negative emotion, then the sooner that thought arrives, the sooner the negative emotion will be dropped. But certainly we can go through a whole routine of living out a story and even when looking at it much later, it can be seen that there was no identification with it. Habit may be a main condition resulting in the living out of a story. Would this mean that, on reflection, that you would find unquestioned belief in it ? That you are identified with it ? ..or that it was just what the organism always does under those circumstances ?
These will change as new synaptic connections and neuronal pathways are formed and replace the old ones that are being diffused with the recognition that it is happening.

The typing goes on almost by itself and the words just come.

Is this the way that it seemed to happen before ?

It's like at this moment this is happening and why doesn't it feel like enough.

Ah, usually this is because of the expectations that we collected as we read the pop spirituality stuff. i was most disappointed that there was no bliss bomb. i always returned to the portal that Vince went through. That THIS is IT. No matter what, THIS is the way it IS.

Love

vince

Hi Vince,

dian wrote:Actual experience is very basic without the story of Dianne it's just here now, what is happening here now.
Would experiencing include the thoughts that are the story as well as any response to that story ?

Yes all included.

dian wrote:There would be no flow just a new unfamiliar moment every moment.
i get what you mean. Treating every moment fresh, like we imagine a newborn baby might. ..but of course there is memory and learning from what are now just thought about an experience. But if memory is seen as just more thoughts then it doesn't have to color THIS. It is only the belief, the living out of those thoughts that bring the past into NOW. In many cases this would amount to forgiveness.

I can see where forgiveness would allow for a moving on from repeated thoughts.

So Dianne, can we have that history present as a background memory and not be sucked into it so that it interferes with that fresh outlook in the present ?

For sure. That is the ideal. I'm working on that. The history as thought arising but not truth. So just this in this moment no wallowing in the content of thought. Trying to notice the thought as I notice the tree or the book and then moving on.

dian wrote:Useful story is the story necessary (memories) that tell me if I put my hand in the fire it will burn is useful story.
Yes, and planning stories. The story that says that you will live for another year, that makes it reasonable to pay your house or car insurance is useful too. ..or story that you will be hungry tomorrow or that you are about to run out of toilet paper. All useful.

Story is very useful as you say as long as story is not running this show.

dian wrote:No sense of wonder here yet.
Oh, don't you wonder at how things happen ?

Yes I have wondered this.

..or where did this thought come from ?

Yes the thought "where did this thought come from" happens quite often although I can sometimes see the outside influences that may have brought the thought to my attention, it did just appear and where it comes from no longer concerns me. Thoughts just appear.

..or how nature works ?

Yes although nature is taken for granted I do love the wonder of it all.

..or what mysterious hole all of the pens end up in ?

Ha ha. Mine is more of the 100 pens in the house why is the one near the phone the one that doesn't write.

dian wrote:The typing goes on almost by itself and the words just come.
Is this the way that it seemed to happen before ?

No, the belief was that the words were my words, thought up by me and the typing was me carefully tapping out my words.

dian wrote:It's like at this moment this is happening and why doesn't it feel like enough.
Ah, usually this is because of the expectations that we collected as we read the pop spirituality stuff. i was most disappointed that there was no bliss bomb. i always returned to the portal that Vince went through. That THIS is IT. No matter what, THIS is the way it IS.

A bliss bomb would be nice I guess but I would rather just a knowing that I got it. Subtle but certain.

kind regards
Dianne

Good Morning Dianne.
Well you are saying all of the 'right' things now. i can't actually see anything left to work on.

I would rather just a knowing that I got it. Subtle but certain.

So is there a knowing that you have it ?
Does subtle and certain describe it ?
Please describe it and any expectations/hopes for moving forward now..

love

vince

Hi Vince,

Well you are saying all of the 'right' things now. i can't actually see anything left to work on.
dian wrote:I would rather just a knowing that I got it. Subtle but certain.
So is there a knowing that you have it ?

There is a very subtle knowing before describing and noticing when it is all known anyway. The blue cup sitting in front of me was already taken in before I described it as a blue cup. Nothing was left out but a description of a blue cup was not needed to be aware of it.

Does subtle and certain describe it ?

So subtle that I can't grasp onto it. I can't catch it no matter how hard I try. A thought is much too late to catch the actual and I'm certain that it never can. What is heard now is the gentle humming of the computer but that was in awareness before I honed in on it and gave words to it. I am certain that I can never beat the awareness of anything with thought. I can never get there before awareness so the thought is just an afterthought. So I am prior to the thought but do include the current thought.

Please describe it and any expectations/hopes for moving forward now..

The expectations for moving forward are just as subtle, only a continual noticing of when the thought comes in as an afterthought. Recognizing when the self comes back in and in that knowing that it was gone.

kind regards
Dianne

Good morning Dianne. You say;

So I am prior to (the thought but do include the current thought.)

Ok. THIS might do it for you...
When you say "So..", this is a conventional way of saying "The conclusion is...". Right ?
When you say "I (am)", you are labeling something that you are unable to find. Something that only has shaky circumstantial evidence, at best, for actual existence. So, (grin) This also is a deduction. Right ?
When you say "..am", you are saying "exist". I exist prior... This is like seeing an empty car and saying that there must be a driver (specific to that car) around somewhere.
The only thing that we can be certain of, is that it appears as if something is happening. FULL STOP. PERIOD. FINITO
You obviously SEE that anything beyond this is thought stuff.
Any thought stuff follows the noticing of the happening. The happening itself is finished by the time the first thought arises.
This is IT
Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true ?
No matter what i feel like - This is IT! Is this true ?
No matter what i want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true ?
No matter what i think - This is IT! Is this true ?
No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true ?
No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true ?
This most certainly will change, but Now - This is IT! Is this true ?
The full and complete acceptance that This is IT, is what will contribute to How it will change.
Without resistance to what IS and what it might change To, the Extra overlay of worry or anticipation won't exist.
Without that, Now has best chance to revert to a natural or default state of happiness and joy.
Of course, if this has only just started then habit (brain conditioning) needs to run it's course, but simple awareness will erode that.
..and the wanting. Wanting what is not here (now) is simply scratching the (seeking) itch. ..and what happens when we continually scratch the itch ? It gets red and sore. And itchy.
Only by accepting that it will still be itchy until it heals and accepting that it is just the way it is, will the need to scratch it eventually go away.

i think "This is IT"
Then i live "This is IT"
All while This IT - IS.

With the 'This IS IT !', just SEE that the Real, IS the current experiencing, WHATEVER it is. There is NO possible way of changing it, as it is already past the moment it is thought about. TOTAL acceptance of THIS, is another key to not getting sucked into story that suggests that if could or might have been different.

Dianne, what you are seeking is a label.
You are waiting, looking for the label "Done."
You expect a particular reaction to that label.
You believe that reaction will be a sign.
..a sign that the label is correct.
Then you will be in heaven. Nirvana.
What itch are you scratching ?

love

vince

Hi Vince,

This is IT
Once noticing of experience occurs, the actual experience is already in the past. Is this true ?

Yes

No matter what i feel like - This is IT! Is this true ?

yes

No matter what i want to feel like - This is IT! Is this true ?

Yes

No matter what i think - This is IT! Is this true ?

Yes

No matter what has happened in the past - This is IT! Is this true ?

Yes

No matter anything - This is IT! Is this true ?

Yes

This most certainly will change, but Now - This is IT! Is this true ?

Yes


i think "This is IT"
Then i live "This is IT"
All while This IT - IS.

Dianne, what you are seeking is a label.
You are waiting, looking for the label "Done."
You expect a particular reaction to that label.
You believe that reaction will be a sign.
..a sign that the label is correct.

There is a wanting to be done. A thought this ' I' would like to be done.

Then you will be in heaven. Nirvana.
What itch are you scratching ?

I'm not sure what itch is being scratched. It seems true that the harder I try the less clarity is here. All you say rings true- this is it. Just really glad I don't have to pay you by the hour.
Thank you for your patience Vince.
kind regards
Dianne

Just really glad I don't have to pay you by the hour.

Perhaps you will pay it forward by guiding one day ? If every organism that wakes up (you know what i mean), guides 2 others, we will get to 9billion pretty quickly.
On a more intimate note.. i have a fantastic (literally) story going here. This organism responds with joy and peace to that story. There is a Dianne chapter happening. i don't know how it will turn out, but neither do i care. i don't need to care because i have enough history to trust that it will also be joyous. i also know that there will be discovery as the chapter is created. Not created by me. It seems (here) that i am the brush in the creation of this painting.

Thank you for your patience Vince.

i know what you mean, but no patience required.

It seems true that the harder I try the less clarity is here.

So completely stop trying and you will have perfect clarity.
..although that implies that you have control. That you can choose to stop. That you can have an intention and make a decision. ...and all of this before you actually carry it out.
Dianne, is this possible ?

love

vince

Hi Vince,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity "self, 'me 'I',. There has never been.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

To me the illusion of the separate self is the thoughts that attach to things and an opinion that comes so closely after experience to be thought to be of relevance to experience. A necessary part of what is happening. The disappearing of the separate self is before the thoughts come in between thoughts there is no separate self.
I can't see that it varies. The thought is always behind the actual happening. A very subtle knowing is there before the thought to pick up a cup. The thought is not needed for the event.

3) How does it feel to see that there is no actual, separate Self ? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't feel any different. The cleaning still gets done, I still take the dog for his walks, the me (thought) still comes in to label and take credit for everything. The me (thought) just isn't believed.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was no last bit. Just knowing that all is done without a me. Words come out of my mouth the same as before but until they come out I don't know what the next word will be. Thoughts just carry on sometimes randomly and sometimes to do with what is happening but I don't do anything to bring them or decide which thoughts will come. Everything is done from habit - automatically with no instructions needed from a me.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Describe decision,
Sitting out here writing I would think is a decision I made but it's just thoughts suggesting or maybe not even that. It actually just happened maybe habitual. A warm sunny day and I want to be outside but where the original idea came from I don't know.
Describe intention,
I intend to go and wash the dishes now just comes as I write it down. I may get up and do it or not. Intention in the form of a thought doesn't have much power at all. A plan to do something tomorrow is I think an intention which comes as a thought and may or may not be carried out. So intention doesn't seem to be in my power.
Describe free will
Free will is just an illusion. I don't choose thoughts, actions, breathing, beating of the heart so I can't see that I would have any free will.
Describe choice
Choices depend on past habits and preferences. I can't find the choice point when choosing anything. I could say I chose to read a book rather than watch tv last night but there was nothing on I wanted to watch and my husband had fallen asleep and my hand automatically reached for the controls to turn the tv off.
Describe control
I have no control over anything. I don't control thoughts or body movements so what is left to control.
What makes things happen?
I don't know.
How does it work?
I don't know.
What are you responsible for?
I am not responsible for anything. Everything just happens without me. Whatever is happening in this moment is all that is happening. It's happening now and I didn't make it happen and I can't change it so I cannot be responsible.

kind regards
Dianne

Hi Dianne, we have a formality where it is needed that 3 other guides confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate. This has been done, and now you will be invited to join a Facebook group where ' 'gatecrashers' support each other. (and 'deepening' happens)
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in these groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and here is a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf

Oh, and once you have settled in, you might consider guiding others (kind of 'paying it forward') which i think that you'll be good at. There is mentoring/training for this, but the wisdom that SEEing reveals takes you most of the way.

love

vince