Before I run out of time....

[Elad]

The image by itself doesnt say 'me' or 'my body' or even 'a body'.

Yes!

There are obviously colours or shapes but the 'processing' that triggers recognition is very very quick. I reckon I can only reduce the image to colours and shapes again after recognition has happened, Cant seem to see just the 'raw data'

Actually you can. It's like the duck/rabbit illusion. One or the other might show up, deliberate attention can affect it, we might have more propensity to one of them. That doesn't matter. We are not looking to get rid of conceptuality.

Here is what is important: Is it clear that neither perspective is an "external reality"? Both are ways of experiencing with no inherent absolute self nature.

But when I watch carefully and am properly in 'feelings related to body' and then open my eyes to look in the mirror, there is a discernible process where the image is seen and the 'machinery'/computer gradually recognises the image and labels it... Its like looking at old photos and picking out my mother or my younger self - "that must be me"

Right, so fair to say no real separate self is found, just habitual ways of experiencing?

Repeating, the point is not to get rid of normal experience, just to see clearly that it is "mind constructed" and has no independent enduring self anywhere in it.




Another exercise for you:



Sight-Sensation Correlation Exercise

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate...

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand). But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

[KateB]

Actually you can. It's like the duck/rabbit illusion. One or the other might show up, deliberate attention can affect it, we might have more propensity to one of them. That doesn't matter. We are not looking to get rid of conceptuality.

I get this, but only sometimes... I often notice I can click between 'blocks and lines' and 'buildings' ... but have never noticed two 'ways of seeing' with people or faces...

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

You are right they are concurrent but seem completely separate, I cant find a causal link between them.

This seems important - I'll do some more.

[Elad]

Actually you can. It's like the duck/rabbit illusion. One or the other might show up, deliberate attention can affect it, we might have more propensity to one of them. That doesn't matter. We are not looking to get rid of conceptuality.

I get this, but only sometimes... I often notice I can click between 'blocks and lines' and 'buildings' ... but have never noticed two 'ways of seeing' with people or faces...[/quote]



Right and it is not needed. What is most important is just to recognize cogniton-perception as cognition-perception. No separate self and no objective external reality in it.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

You are right they are concurrent but seem completely separate, I cant find a causal link between them.

This seems important - I'll do some more.

Great!

And here is another exercise for you to explore:




Hand on desk


Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'? What do you find?

5) Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

[KateB]

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?

ONe sensation

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

no, jsut feeling

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

No , just the sensation

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'? What do you find?

So long as Im not thinking about the experience, there is just sensation

5) Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

The feeler isnt 'there in the experience, its a thought.....But I'm going to have to do this and the mirror exercises lots of times if it's to sink in...

[Elad]

Great, you are doing good "looking"

Can you see that "I have to do it many times" is a story that gets added, a thought/belief about you?

While it conventionally shows a knowing of your patterns, it actually reinforces the belief in the story of self.

All what this invesitgation is about is only NOW.

All the rest is thoughts. Practice is a thought. Even awakening is a thought. It's all only about what is seen NOW.

Here is another exercise:


Scales - Sensation-Thought Correlation


1. Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?

2. Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier. Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

[KateB]

Can you see that "I have to do it many times" is a story that gets added, a thought/belief about you?

While it conventionally shows a knowing of your patterns, it actually reinforces the belief in the story of self.

You are right....
.... and I'd spent the day 'reminding myself' of 'no objective reality'...

Scales - Sensation-Thought Correlation

Seems a good exercise but its now late and I will try it tomorrow

[KateB]

Scales - Sensation-Thought Correlation
1. Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?

I dont know how to set about this! Thoughts and sensations do seem to bounce off each other (sensation coinciding with thoughts ...labels, chains of thoughts... or thoughts seeming to set up sensations ...apprehension, delight..)
I feel myself unpacking the exercise as a logical problem ('know about' means what? ...does a causal connection count? ...would 'knowing' be a thought.. etc)
or some sort of neuroscienc-y exploration (what is same/different between thoughts and sensations).

None of this leads to anything at all clear.

Just sitting there 'in direct experience' I have sensation in one hand and thoughts in the other and the only connection between them is the thought that they are both being 'watched'. I dont find them 'knowing about' each other.... But the notion of a self that has the thought and has the sensation has a lot of 'explanatory power'...!

Im reminded of babies around 5-6 months gazing at their hands!

2. Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier. Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Even more tricky! I can 'make' sensation 'heavier' with thought lighter and vice versa but cant seem to balance the scales by looking ... or 'trying'

[Elad]

1) Just look at this: What happens to clear awareness of sensations when there is clear awareness of thoughts? What happens to clear awareness of thoughts when there is clear awareness of sensations? Can a direct connection between thought and sensation be found in direct experience? (as opposed to a believed association between a sensation and a thought, which is not a direct connection, but another thought).

2) For the next day explore: When is the internal commentary adding clarity? Check in different moments, say internal commentary while listening to someone, internal commentary while paying attention to sensations, internal commentary after asking "is there a separate self anywhere?"

[KateB]

What happens to clear awareness of sensations when there is clear awareness of thoughts? What happens to clear awareness of thoughts when there is clear awareness of sensations? Can a direct connection between thought and sensation be found in direct experience? (as opposed to a believed association between a sensation and a thought, which is not a direct connection, but another thought)

This brings home how rare 'clear awareness of thoughts' is ... and also 'clear awareness of sensations'.... Sensations never switch off, they are always there tho not necessarily being much 'looked at'. Thoughts are also pretty pervasive tho there are gaps discernible when awareness is reasonably clear!

For the next day explore: When is the internal commentary adding clarity? Check in different moments, say internal commentary while listening to someone, internal commentary while paying attention to sensations, internal commentary after asking "is there a separate self anywhere?"

The internal commentary is pretty useless, distracting, discursive, but also pervasive - labelling, like and dislike etc. It does not add clarity, usually (??always??) subtracts clarity. My sense is that it is possible to not attend to the commentary (feels like 'switching it off' tho the 'off' doesnt last!

when listening to someone ... lots of judgement, anticipation of what is going to be said next, ...

when asking "is there a separate self".... the internal commentary is framing the question as a puzzle to be solved with words or logic or even diagrams with arrows!

I reckon I have a deep belief that important questions have to be 'tackled' and that there is some sort of 'right answer'.

[Elad]

when listening to someone ... lots of judgement, anticipation of what is going to be said next, ...

when asking "is there a separate self".... the internal commentary is framing the question as a puzzle to be solved with words or logic or even diagrams with arrows!

So when that happens, just be curious about it moment to moment. Don't believe a mental conclusion about. Keep looking:


Does this commentary add anything? Does it say something that bring more clarity to the clarity that is all ready there by itself in "your" awareness?


Try it out while listening (again) to LU "enligthening" quotes

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... MJ4LRs2Yds_

And in normal day to day conversational situations.

[KateB]

Thanks SO much for the reminder about the LU quotes - great timeing
I will write back later

[KateB]

Try it out while listening (again) to LU "enligthening" quotes

I dont know how I have never listened to these quotes before - I looked at the book and several longer videos but not these..

I have only got as far as number 3 'fear' because it made me recognise something....
I have never really acknowledged fear as part of my emotional spectrum - fear at the bodily 'terror' or 'quaking' end of the spectrum never turns up - I even refute 'anxiety' as a personal feeling. But the LU quote made me realise that avoidance and distraction are on the same spectrum and both of those happen a LOT... I caught it during the video, suddenly 'needing' to water the plants rather than listen to what LU said about fear! So the instruction to look at the avoidance that crops up in this way is new (not proud of that!!) But turning towards the physical signal of avoidance/anxiety is keeping me busy especially vis a vis fostering doubt about the separate self the 'separate bit of existence' that he talks about.

And in normal day to day conversational situations.

doing this yesterday was an effort! I was listening to someone I rarely see telling me about what she had been doing... and really tried not to interpolate thoughts of 'get on with it!" and 'why did you do that?' etc. But as the conversation progressed, it became a lot easier and more pleasant to stay open and concentrating on the 'to and fro' rather than my internal chatter.

[Elad]

Try it out while listening (again) to LU "enligthening" quotes

I dont know how I have never listened to these quotes before - I looked at the book and several longer videos but not these..

I have only got as far as number 3 'fear' because it made me recognise something....
I have never really acknowledged fear as part of my emotional spectrum - fear at the bodily 'terror' or 'quaking' end of the spectrum never turns up - I even refute 'anxiety' as a personal feeling. But the LU quote made me realise that avoidance and distraction are on the same spectrum and both of those happen a LOT... I caught it during the video, suddenly 'needing' to water the plants rather than listen to what LU said about fear! So the instruction to look at the avoidance that crops up in this way is new

Very good. That is a major insight. Now pay attention if you can feel avoidance/anxiety as sensation before it manifests as actions or thoughts?

And be curious about what is being avoided. Don't think about it. Breath with it and feel.

(not proud of that!!)

Notice how something in you can selfdestructively turn a moment of celebration to a moment of shame. Habitually I guess. Next time this happens can you feel the shame, just the sensation without thinking about it. And then feel what it protects or surpresses. Again not thinking, feeling.


Both with the anxiety and the shame, when you manage to "peep behind" even for moment, be curious what is there, is it a rigid self or something open?

But turning towards the physical signal of avoidance/anxiety is keeping me busy especially vis a vis fostering doubt about the separate self the 'separate bit of existence' that he talks about.

Good with turning towards direct experience.

And in normal day to day conversational situations.

doing this yesterday was an effort! I was listening to someone I rarely see telling me about what she had been doing... and really tried not to interpolate thoughts of 'get on with it!" and 'why did you do that?' etc. But as the conversation progressed, it became a lot easier and more pleasant to stay open and concentrating on the 'to and fro' rather than my internal chatter.

Very good. Selfing is maintained through internal talk to a large extent. Continue exploring to focus on the alive listening and conversation. To experience it rather then think about it. Experience its rythm, sensations, tones, spontaneous occurances...

[KateB]

(not proud of that!!)

Notice how something in you can selfdestructively turn a moment of celebration to a moment of shame. Habitually I guess. Next time this happens can you feel the shame, just the sensation without thinking about it. And then feel what it protects or surpresses. Again not thinking, feeling.

Both with the anxiety and the shame, when you manage to "peep behind" even for moment, be curious what is there, is it a rigid self or something open?

So far I find something old, childhood...way back... useful to 'see' because it is so out of date for an old woman!

Very good. That is a major insight. Now pay attention if you can feel avoidance/anxiety as sensation before it manifests as actions or thoughts?

And be curious about what is being avoided. Don't think about it. Breath with it and feel.

I have the sense that the 'journey' has recently become more personal...less abstract...

[Elad]

Beautiful.


1) Can you stay with the sensation of avoidance/anxiety without labeling it or pushing it away? What happens when you do?

2) As you feel into this, is there actually a ‘you’ avoiding something, or is avoidance just happening?

3) What is the experience of this moment without any reference to past or future? Is there a ‘journey’ at all? If there is no past, no future, and no one avoiding—what remains?