Would be grateful for a guide

[placebo8]

Now try to find this discomfort itself. Look at the sensations and the feeling that triggers these thoughts. Look if the physical sensations are really connected via "discomfort" to these reactive thoughts... Where is this glue that sticks these two sides together?

So I sat down in a classic lotus position which I knew would guarantee discomfort after a while, and just waited until the sensations start to arise and be amplified over time. Soon enough there was something to work with. The bottom line is that I couldn't find the glue that connects the sensations to the feeling of discomfort. When focusing only on the sensations then there isn't anything inherently bad about them - they are just sensations. When this is noticed, the discomfort subsides, but not for long. The longer I sat like this, the harder it became to notice only the sensations while ignoring the accompanying feeling of discomfort. After an hour of sitting motionless (well, 57 minutes to be exact) there was, as expected, an internal struggle going on. One part saying "Don't run away from this, work with it" while the other saying "this is too much and pointless, it's not going to get better, and even if you manage to hold on for longer there will eventually be a breaking point, so why bother?". This was also followed by a thought of what would happen if there was nothing I could physically do to change the sensations at the breaking point, would that lead to some sort of surrender and liberation or would it lead to falling into an infinite abyss of torment.

The "why bother" reasoning "won" in the end, leaving me disappointed - more because of thinking that I'm missing something crucial with regards to the exercise than due to being "defeated" by physicality.

So while it is logically accepted that "I feel discomfort" is just as illusory as "I am doing something" (both being derived in the first place from a belief in an "I" thought), when the sensations get more extreme, logic isn't going to save the day, and apparently trying to focus only the sensations won't either. So what am I missing? Is it just a question of perseverance in doing this?

[Alexw]

The bottom line is that I couldn't find the glue that connects the sensations to the feeling of discomfort. When focusing only on the sensations then there isn't anything inherently bad about them - they are just sensations. When this is noticed, the discomfort subsides, but not for long. The longer I sat like this, the harder it became to notice only the sensations while ignoring the accompanying feeling of discomfort.

When you meditate again, please do the same again, look at the sensations and as soon as you believe that discomfort has arisen, then please try to find this "discomfort". Try to really look at it. What is this "discomfort"? Please describe the direct experience of "discomfort".
After looking at this "discomfort" for a few minutes change your position slightly so these "uncomfortable" sensations subside.
Again look at the sensations - in which way are they different to the "discomfort" that was experienced before?
After a few minutes you might believe that "discomfort" is experienced again... do the same again - look at this "discomfort" - try to describe it - and then change your position... But please don't torture yourself - you don't have to take it to the extreme to see.

[placebo8]

Try to really look at it. What is this "discomfort"? Please describe the direct experience of "discomfort".

Interesting. Repeated exactly the same. Lotus position, no movement, one hour. The reason why I didn't change position was that today the meditation experiment seemed less tormenting than yesterday. Logically, I could start listing all the physical/psychological theories why this could be so but regardless, there did appear to be something a bit new: I just focused on the sensations and when the discomfort started to form, I tried to look directly at it and it appeared that the more I looked and demanded to see it, the more it faded back to sensations. Of course, as soon as I was happy that the discomfort subsided, that was its cue to return. I in turn, focused again on finding it, and it once more it faded back to sensations.

One thing though that made me cautious not to put to much into this is that at one point, during one of those times when the discomfort dissipated back to just sensations, there was a noise nearby which caused me to tense up and experience a quick feeling of alarm. This conjured up thought which, in it's usual self-criticizing style, argued that had I really somehow transcended discomfort at that point then it shouldn't be limited to discomfort due to pain but also discomfort due to fear/alarm, and perhaps all I did was learn to get used to the physical discomfort. Although it's a nagging thought, I think perhaps the best answer to it for now is just to watch this thought too as just another thing floating around just like anything else, and also just as powerless to define me as anything else experienced.

[Alexw]

Great! Well done!

When you meditate again, do the same thing. Try to find the "discomfort".

One thing though that made me cautious not to put to much into this is that at one point, during one of those times when the discomfort dissipated back to just sensations, there was a noise nearby which caused me to tense up and experience a quick feeling of alarm. This conjured up thought which, in it's usual self-criticizing style, argued that had I really somehow transcended discomfort at that point then it shouldn't be limited to discomfort due to pain but also discomfort due to fear/alarm

Don't expect too much too fast. Meditate on this a few more times and look deeply. Please come back after the weekend and let me know how you are going.

Also, even after seeing through this completely, don't expect sensations to vanish, they are needed - even labels like "discomfort" might still arise, and why not, they don't harm you as long as you don't pick them up and weave them into a story. Most importantly the reactivity can be broken - thus the nagging thoughts will go (and with them suffering).

And... don't expect/project a specific outcome. The only important thing is to honestly look for this "discomfort" - try to find it!

[placebo8]

Not much to report yet - seems there's still a latching on to the ups and downs. For some reason, a mood of despair, lack of motivation, cynicism and skepticism took over the past few days, and during it's reign, it was difficult not to see it as something happening "to me". Figured I'd just let it pass and try again when the circumstances are more favourable... Hope to have something more substantial to write about later.

[Alexw]

Sure, take your time, but often these difficult times provide a great opportunity for inquiry... use it if possible :-)

[placebo8]

Sure, take your time, but often these difficult times provide a great opportunity for inquiry... use it if possible :-)

Well, in the same way that I'm not at a level where I can witness intense physical discomfort as "another event happening to no-one", so can emotional discomfort (such as general lack of motivation, stress, etc) be at an intensity that it is difficult to just look at it like a botanist examines some new plant. At times like this, even trying to meditate is seen as yet another chore that needs to be done, another problem that needs to be solved, only unlike other frustrating problems which drain energy and are difficult to make progress in, this problem is not difficult but simply impossible. I'll be the first to admit this is yet another story repeatedly playing itself, a sort of real-life groundhog day, but as I've pointed out several times, being aware is not an escape ticket. I believe it takes a lot of practice and perseverance and of course luck. The truth is that not only is there a strong belief in an "I" story, but there is a belief this "I" story will always be believed in (at least, not while this body/mind is functioning). Though I'd love to be proven wrong, part of the story is that I don't believe I will be proven wrong on this. Dismantling this part of the story is tricky.

So, as I gather you've already understood from the above, still nothing to report - still trying to find the way out of the woods... Not giving up (though it might appear so from the above), but just dropping a note to sat that it will take more time before I can send anything worth mentioning regarding milestones to liberation...

[Alexw]

but as I've pointed out several times, being aware is not an escape ticket

When you are aware of a problem or a situation, what happens to it?
When you are aware that you were again caught up in thought, believing the stories, what happens to them?
Being aware means also to ultimately dissolve whatever you seem to be aware of into awareness itself, into pure knowing-ness. (this is not something that you do, it happens no matter what one believes)

When you are aware of a problem and you keep on being aware of the thoughts as they try to turn this problem into something substantial then this seeming materialisation will never truly happen. You will simply remain aware, but you won't lose yourself in the story. When you don't lose yourself in story-land then you remain while the stories pass by...
You can test this with anything you like, looking at an object like a cup or at a story like "I am feeling discomfort" - ultimately they both will simply dissolve into the awareness/knowing of them. Does the awareness of a thought ever become entangled into the thought(story) itself? Or does it only take form as a thought and then vanish - what remains..?

The truth is that not only is there a strong belief in an "I" story, but there is a belief this "I" story will always be believed in (at least, not while this body/mind is functioning). Though I'd love to be proven wrong, part of the story is that I don't believe I will be proven wrong on this. Dismantling this part of the story is tricky.

No its not tricky. Simply see it happening and keep on being aware. Suddenly this story will sound like a pretty bad joke to you... How could you ever be touched by a thought-story? How ridiculous, isn't it?
What is the same with all stories, with all perceiving, really with any experience? Is it this story-I experiencing it? If not, then what?

[placebo8]

When you are aware of a problem or a situation, what happens to it?
When you are aware that you were again caught up in thought, believing the stories, what happens to them?

Experience shows that different things can happen, depending on what the awareness leads to. The term "Ignorance is bliss" does have its merits with regards to how awareness of something can lead to thoughts which cause more suffering than would happen if there was no sense of an aware "I". When I'm aware that I'm caught up in stories, I just replace them with another story - mostly about how sad that there's this I story which is under the spell of these other stories. I actually want to laugh at how ridiculous this last sentence sounds, but stern Mr. "I" thinks - "yeah, you want to laugh now - let's see you laugh when the going gets tough..."

Being aware means also to ultimately dissolve whatever you seem to be aware of into awareness itself, into pure knowing-ness. (this is not something that you do, it happens no matter what one believes)

I feel this is probably the case, but other than wait patiently and have faith that things are on the right track, it appears there's not much else that can be done.

When you are aware of a problem and you keep on being aware of the thoughts as they try to turn this problem into something substantial then this seeming materialisation will never truly happen. You will simply remain aware, but you won't lose yourself in the story. When you don't lose yourself in story-land then you remain while the stories pass by...

Well, an opportunity to test this presented itself just a few hours ago when I overexerted myself doing some physical exercise. From past episodes, this can turn into an extremely frightening experience. While this was happening and I felt the possibility of a wave of panic taking over, I considered just letting the fear rise and trying to just be aware of it but fear or the fear overtook me, so I opted for the option to shut it down by blocking all thoughts and focusing only on the physical sensations. This technique usually blocks the downward spiral which I've had the misfortune of experiencing a few times in the past. The point is that had I tried to just be aware of the thoughts/emotions instead of blocking them by diverting the attention to the physical sensations alone, I strongly doubt that it wouldn't end up with me losing myself in story-land and things going south from there. I guess the solution is to do this with more controlled and less extreme situations. Seems like I don't yet posses the courage or insight that Ramana Maharshi had at 16... :-)

What is the same with all stories, with all perceiving, really with any experience?

That they have to be known in order to be. That their being is their knowing, which logically has to apply to their knower as well. It all points to one conclusion and instead of just seeing it, I feel like I'm dancing around it...

[Alexw]

That they have to be known in order to be. That their being is their knowing, which logically has to apply to their knower as well. It all points to one conclusion and instead of just seeing it, I feel like I'm dancing around it...

Yes, ok...
Lets imagine that even after realisation happens nothing truly changes except that your interpretation of what you are, what others, objects or "reality" is changes. Imagine that experience, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling will stay exactly the same, it is only what you make of it, how you interpret it, changes.

Now... What is it that keeps you dancing around it?
Where do these interpretations come from? How can they change?

I guess you will say, yes I see they come from thought only, but I am not able to change them. I try, but I cant...
And yes, you are right... "you" can't change them as "you" are only an interpretation.
So what can change this interpretation? How did you get to know these interpretations in the first place? Are they fixed or can they change?

[placebo8]

Been a while - working, thinking, thinking about thinking, and trying to accept the loop...

I guess you will say, yes I see they come from thought only, but I am not able to change them. I try, but I cant...
And yes, you are right... "you" can't change them as "you" are only an interpretation.
So what can change this interpretation? How did you get to know these interpretations in the first place? Are they fixed or can they change?

The interpretations are what enable feeling like a separate someone. Even if they would be changed, all that would change is the illusion of who that someone is. The only thing that doesn't change is the knowing of the interpretations. While this "me" thought accepts this knowing has no concepts nor knower of concepts, but just a capacity to be whatever is, the gravitation to identify with the "I'm suffering" thought when things are not to the liking of the body/mind is what still ends up dominating.

As you correctly assessed, I think I've proven to myself beyond any intellectual doubt that an ineffable but very real consciousness precedes all, holds all and in fact nothing else can be shown to truly exist - A long way from the materialist beliefs held many years ago, and yet - a long way from being free of it's spell.

Another way to describe what I feel stuck in is the attempt to be simultaneously "resisting" and "non resisting": The way an "I" sees it, resistance is required for life to exist. Creating order is a resistance to natural tendency for disorder, a healthy lifestyle is a resistance to illness, searching for food is a resistance to starving etc. The only way to see it as things happening that have nothing to do with resisting is to let go of all opinions about the situation being "good" or "bad" for this "I" and just seeing it play out (as it will anyway) whether there's someone there to think he's doing it or not. As I've mentioned many times before, this works up to a point. Beyond that, an "I" asserts itself in full force - and my current way to handle this just try to also accept this situation of not being able to handle some situations...

[Alexw]

The interpretations are what enable feeling like a separate someone.

At least this is what we believe is happening... but do you really ever truly experience a feeling of being "someone"?
Please sit down and try to find such a sensation. Really feel it. Now please describe what it is like. Where in the body do you feel it? What makes it personal?

Even if they would be changed, all that would change is the illusion of who that someone is.

...or that there is no someone that owns these feelings... at least this is what direct experience reveals, doesn't it?

The only thing that doesn't change is the knowing of the interpretations.

Yes. And the knowing of sensations, and of seeing or hearing... etc...
Can you find a separate knower that knows thoughts or perception?

While this "me" thought accepts...

This is another interpretation... how could a thought accept anything?

I think I've proven to myself beyond any intellectual doubt that an ineffable but very real consciousness precedes all, holds all and in fact nothing else can be shown to truly exist - A long way from the materialist beliefs held many years ago, and yet - a long way from being free of it's spell.

Yes, I understand... the problem is also that we tend to imagine a certain state of god-like qualities to emerge once being free from the spell of the ego (as well as duality in general), but what I found is that this is obviously not the case, you rather live life from a different perspective, your humanity doesn't change, experience doesn't change, but certain beliefs and interpretations simply don't hold water anymore. Whatever seems to be unnatural can be questioned and when it is seen to be really non-existent it looses its power and after a while it dissolves. It is only the conditioned interpretations that need a revision, not existence itself. Obviously there is existence (whatever that means) and we seem to experience it in an objective way. We have made up rules that we believe accurately describe this objective universe, but maybe life doesn't follow our made up rules... playing a game by rules that really don't fit the game will lead to frustration and eventually suffering. Not because the game is a problem, but because rules are being followed blindly without questioning their validity. Once it is seen that there are these invented rules, but the game itself doesn't follow these rules you can smile and relax. You still play to most of the rules, but you know that the game doesn't care...

[placebo8]

At least this is what we believe is happening... but do you really ever truly experience a feeling of being "someone"?
Please sit down and try to find such a sensation. Really feel it. Now please describe what it is like. Where in the body do you feel it? What makes it personal?

Seems a feeling of being "someone" is the feeling usually associated with wanting something other than the current situation. It feels deeper and more real than some intellectual thought which can be witnessed neutrally. I can no more describe "where" in the body it is felt than I can describe where in the body I feel any emotion. What makes it personal is the sense of "agreement" or "disagreement" with it, and while it's difficult enough to agree with something that goes against conditioning, it seems impossible to agree with something that goes against natural instincts, such as physical discomfort or a feeling of danger. It's in these situations when the "self" belief is really tested, and in my case always comes out on top.

Once it is seen that there are these invented rules, but the game itself doesn't follow these rules you can smile and relax.

It takes a certain happening for this to take place, and I guess I'm still waiting for that happening to occur. Take your own case - from an "I"s perspective there was a time before you "reaalised there is nothing realise" and a time after that. No amount of thinking would bring it about, but something changed - and even if it changed for no-one, it is still an event that a make-believe "I" thinks can eventually happen to "it" (I mean even the "you" story has "before" and "after" memories), so I'm waiting for the "me" story to also have "before" and "after" memories - even if the "after" part does not belong to anyone anymore...

[Alexw]

while it's difficult enough to agree with something that goes against conditioning, it seems impossible to agree with something that goes against natural instincts, such as physical discomfort or a feeling of danger. It's in these situations when the "self" belief is really tested, and in my case always comes out on top.

It is not necessary to agree or disagree with something that is based on natural instincts - simply let it flow (as much as this is in line with social conventions). But what can be done is to look behind the scenes and analyse how agreement/disagreement works in the first place. We believe we agree on one thing and reject the other. We believe we have the power of choice... Do you have this power? Can it be found?

It takes a certain happening for this to take place, and I guess I'm still waiting for that happening to occur.

Yes, true. It takes a realisation (which doesn't have to be something magical, a simple realisation like "Ah.. Santa is not real in the first place!" is just fine) and once this realisation has been made then it has to be lived. Living it means to keep on looking in an alert, conscious and active way. We can question and explore every single interpretation of experience and see if it is true. Can any of these interpretations or beliefs truly be found in experience? Does it match? Does experience behave in the way we expect it to?

[placebo8]

We believe we agree on one thing and reject the other. We believe we have the power of choice... Do you have this power? Can it be found?

That's just it - the feeling of "no choice" also includes no choice but to believe in an illusion of a separate "I" and interpret some experiences as personal suffering.

I see your point logically - the question of individual choice is irrelevant when there is no individual to begin with. All I'm saying (repeatedly, to the point of risking your patience...) is that the ability to transcend suffering is the only measure I'm willing to accept for understanding the truth of things. I'm totally unimpressed with my logical and intellectual understanding of the subject...

a simple realisation like "Ah.. Santa is not real in the first place!" is just fine

I don't feel its fine for "me". While it's understood there is no real me, I still get tied up with the story. Wanting so much to see the story without being the story just creates another story which is then held onto. I can appreciate how this whole thing is quite ridiculous, and yet I'm still taking part. Perhaps it's like that old cliche of falling in love happening only when you stop frantically searching for it.

We can question and explore every single interpretation of experience and see if it is true

I try to do this as frequently as I can. The funny thing is that I think I'm starting to slowly (very slowly) accept that's it's ok if I never understand it, since this "I" is made up anyway :-)