Zen Of Chaos-this is your thread

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

Yes sounds good John

Ok. Cool.

First thing, the word "fear'. Spend some time with the word in and of itself. It is, at the end of the day, a four letter word with a particular sound when spoken. It exists APART from any feelings, thoughts, etc.

Spend a little time seeing how the word "fear" has no power at all on its own.

Just like any other word: "honour", "tree", "worry", "self" - just words, isolated, distinct, no power of their own.

If, as you're pondering on the word, you notice feelings/thoughts coming up, set that aside, to really just see that A WORD IS A WORD IS A WORD. Nice and clean.

Best,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

yeah "fear" is a word like any other when looked at in isolation. The word itself is powerless. It becomes impactful when it triggers emotion, memories, or 'what ifs'

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

yeah "fear" is a word like any other when looked at in isolation. The word itself is powerless. It becomes impactful when it triggers emotion, memories, or 'what ifs'

Absolutely. Spot on. It's only when we take the WORD + FEELINGS together that the DREAM is created and meaning is formed.

At LU, we're pointing to show and look what happens before the WORDS are applied, the so-called "direct experience" or as close as we can get.

There's the DESCRIPTION and the EXPERIENCE WITHOUT WORDS.

Just wanted to be clear what we're looking at here. EXPERIENCE WITHOUT WORDS can only be sensed and felt. It doesn't MEAN anything because a DESCRIPTION has yet to be applied.

Needless to say, the default mode is: describe, describe, describe. The usual way of perceiving.

Now, for example, turn your right hand so the palm is facing. Looking at this shape, this "thing".

Notice first of all the description: "this is a hand, a palm". Get a real sense of that layer of description on top.

Look at other things around you and notice the subtlety of DESCRIPTION - how seamlessly it layers on top of what is seen.

A tree is a really good example. Each tree is utterly unique. Yet, the word "tree" can just brush away all the mystery of the tree in front of you. Look at a tree and ask, "what am I seeing? the tree or the tree beneath the layer of 'tree' "?

If you can notice the subtle "tree" description layer, see if you can set it aside briefly while seeing the tree.

Have a play with that and share what happens.

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Had a walk in the park today. When looking closely at a tree without attending to a verbal description I could see a slightly different quality to the tree. It wasn't really one thing but made up countless parts - each nook and crack of the bark, different colours and shapes, and other life growing on top.

It seems very difficult and effortful to see things without the descriptions. Does the labelling mostly stop after liberation? Or does it become a practice to stop it?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

Had a walk in the park today. When looking closely at a tree without attending to a verbal description I could see a slightly different quality to the tree. It wasn't really one thing but made up countless parts - each nook and crack of the bark, different colours and shapes, and other life growing on top.

It seems very difficult and effortful to see things without the descriptions. Does the labelling mostly stop after liberation? Or does it become a practice to stop it?

Good work. Notice that just the intent to see the tree rather than the tree-name led to perception widening and more of the tree was seen.

Are there two trees the same? Yet they are both seen as "tree".

Choose anything around you and see the HUGE GAP between the thing itself and the "name".

Is there anything around you that you completely know in every respect? Anything.

Even your hand in front of your face. How much do you know about that hand? 5%? 1%?

Start to see the widening gap between description and that which is around.

Look forward to your comments.

Best,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

i find the mind constantly wants to jump in. Even when it doesn't label or storytell, it feels like there is a thought cloud looming, covering up actual experience. I can't help but get frustrated by not being able to drop thought or sustain attention.

It those very brief interludes between thought activity (actual thoughts/analysis/problem solving) things take on a deeper, more alive, form.

I took another walk today and seen a bunch of cows. when one moved, the mind jumped in quickly to 'explain it'.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey ZOC,

i find the mind constantly wants to jump in. Even when it doesn't label or storytell, it feels like there is a thought cloud looming, covering up actual experience. I can't help but get frustrated by not being able to drop thought or sustain attention.

It those very brief interludes between thought activity (actual thoughts/analysis/problem solving) things take on a deeper, more alive, form.

I took another walk today and seen a bunch of cows. when one moved, the mind jumped in quickly to 'explain it'.

This is all good. The brain is just doing it's job making a coherent, stable map of what is. It's fine, our game is not with the brain, dropping thoughts or trying to sustain attention. None of these is essential or required for this work.

In fact, there's barely anything you need to do.

So, any ideas that show up which seem to dictate what this is about - like needing to calm the mind, stop thoughts etc - your job is to see them as in the CATEGORY called "Thoughts".

That is all - that is your task for the next day or two - when you notice thoughts coming along, there are two aspects to it:

1. We can get hooked into the content.
2. We can see it's an example of the CATEGORY called "Thoughts".

We might still act on the content or not.

For example, thought comes, "Oh shit, haven't rung Steve about the weekend!" - that's in the CATEGORY called "Thoughts".

As you do this, you might notice getting less and less hooked onto the content as you see thoughts as merely examples of a type.

Have a go and look forward to your experiences/comments.

WIth best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hey ZOC,

This is all good. The brain is just doing it's job making a coherent, stable map of what is. It's fine, our game is not with the brain, dropping thoughts or trying to sustain attention. None of these is essential or required for this work.

In fact, there's barely anything you need to do.

It can feel like there is much to do. so it feels good you say this, although there is doubt because it can feel a stringent effort to monitor thoughts and attention, or to do spiritual practices and what not. I'm never sure how much of this is 'realisation' and how much is practice. Or how many beliefs or past-conditioning needs to be questioned.

So, any ideas that show up which seem to dictate what this is about - like needing to calm the mind, stop thoughts etc - your job is to see them as in the CATEGORY called "Thoughts".

That is all - that is your task for the next day or two - when you notice thoughts coming along, there are two aspects to it:

1. We can get hooked into the content.
2. We can see it's an example of the CATEGORY called "Thoughts".

We might still act on the content or not.

For example, thought comes, "Oh shit, haven't rung Steve about the weekend!" - that's in the CATEGORY called "Thoughts".

As you do this, you might notice getting less and less hooked onto the content as you see thoughts as merely examples of a type.

Have a go and look forward to your experiences/comments.

WIth best wishes,
John

Being doing the 'categorizing' experiment and it does help. I did it a little bit with emotionally weighted thoughts too. It was useful what you said about acting or not acting on content. This seems to make a difference in how they are viewed. Before it was easy to get frustrated when a thought was believed, especially a bad thought. It's only been a day or so but the task helps with the perspective of thoughts, first of all seeing them as words, first and foremost. after that they lose some of their bite. Then I can see them as conditioned thought, judgement, story, or helpful thought, or whatever. I'll keep looking at thoughts this way.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

I'm never sure how much of this is 'realisation' and how much is practice. Or how many beliefs or past-conditioning needs to be questioned.

That's a really good question. For me, it's a mix, but others might say something else. Even "realisation" sounds a bit grand. It's more akin to seeing, and seeing again, and again. Each time, "widening" perception.

Being doing the 'categorizing' experiment and it does help. I did it a little bit with emotionally weighted thoughts too. It was useful what you said about acting or not acting on content. This seems to make a difference in how they are viewed. Before it was easy to get frustrated when a thought was believed, especially a bad thought. It's only been a day or so but the task helps with the perspective of thoughts, first of all seeing them as words, first and foremost. after that they lose some of their bite. Then I can see them as conditioned thought, judgement, story, or helpful thought, or whatever. I'll keep looking at thoughts this way.

Seeing often means seeing how a particular perception is dominating/shaping what is seen. Having seen it, it's easier for it to drop away.

So, to take your comments above, how we perceive thoughts and consider them, to a large extent determines the power they have to shape the consequent acts.

To apply this to: thought content VS thoughts of a type "thought"....

In this exercise, we are using a NEW perception, that sees thoughts as merely the product of a brain doing its job - and doing it very well. Thoughts are churned out and we go, "Oh, better react to this or that".

Whereas, if we "step back" - in awareness terms - and SEE that all these thoughts are in some respects the same: they come, hang around and go, then we begin to notice a measure of freedom from thoughts, from believing they are the be all and end all.

This is the practice aspect, learning to have a more deft perception on what is going on, what is in the awareness.

Again, it's not that the aim is to have the distance from thoughts all the time, it's more that we start to SEE the nature of thoughts - coming and going - seemingly automatically.

Continue to explore.

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

That's a really good question. For me, it's a mix, but others might say something else. Even "realisation" sounds a bit grand. It's more akin to seeing, and seeing again, and again. Each time, "widening" perception.

I'm still fighting with this belief I hold on this, and a lot of it comes from experience. I believe that you have to be 'present' (disidentified with the ego) for any practice to really have any transformative power. So mind tells me what I'm doing will be ultimately useless. the greatest freedom from thoughts i had was when I was able to really be present. It was understood that they were just thoughts arising from a conditioned mind. Now they all seem to have relevance to this mystery being called ZOC.

Seeing often means seeing how a particular perception is dominating/shaping what is seen. Having seen it, it's easier for it to drop away.

So, to take your comments above, how we perceive thoughts and consider them, to a large extent determines the power they have to shape the consequent acts.

To apply this to: thought content VS thoughts of a type "thought"....

In this exercise, we are using a NEW perception, that sees thoughts as merely the product of a brain doing its job - and doing it very well. Thoughts are churned out and we go, "Oh, better react to this or that".

Whereas, if we "step back" - in awareness terms - and SEE that all these thoughts are in some respects the same: they come, hang around and go, then we begin to notice a measure of freedom from thoughts, from believing they are the be all and end all.

This is the practice aspect, learning to have a more deft perception on what is going on, what is in the awareness.

Again, it's not that the aim is to have the distance from thoughts all the time, it's more that we start to SEE the nature of thoughts - coming and going - seemingly automatically.

Continue to explore.

With best wishes,
John

I notice that mind continually perceives there to be a problem with thoughts. I go on this loop where a thought pops up, then i remember to see it as a thought, then there might be a kind of silence when it's dropped, only for the mind to go..."well what now zoccy boy?" then the thought comes up that the only way out of this is to disidentify with thoughts. Then another thought pops up to say "ah, but this is the mind creating a problem. thoughts aren't the problem." Nothing changes so i go back to trying to drop it again, and on and on it goes. lol.

sorry i didn't have anything more positive to report!

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

I'm still fighting with this belief I hold on this, and a lot of it comes from experience. I believe that you have to be 'present' (disidentified with the ego) for any practice to really have any transformative power. So mind tells me what I'm doing will be ultimately useless. the greatest freedom from thoughts i had was when I was able to really be present. It was understood that they were just thoughts arising from a conditioned mind. Now they all seem to have relevance to this mystery being called ZOC.

That's cool. Thoughts comes up, some clear, some vague, some blending into each other, some made of sound, maybe images, maybe sensations, in various configurations. Such is the thought stream of a human being.

Now: "ego", "mind", "presence", "I", "ZOC" :) - these are ideas/thoughts ABOUT thoughts, meta-thoughts, if you like, or beliefs. Usually, with a meta-thought that they are true and real - naturally. :)

In this task of seeing that thought content are EXAMPLES OF A TYPE, this includes meta-thoughts, all thoughts.

If there is a practise, one aspect of it IS what you've been doing. Namely, shifting the perception of thoughts from: "the mind is telling me" and so on....TO...more thought-content...examples of a type.

There will be times when a thought comes and hooks the attention. That's ok. Just notice that's what happened and carry on. Nothing to force. This is just a noticing activity.

I notice that mind continually perceives there to be a problem with thoughts. I go on this loop where a thought pops up, then i remember to see it as a thought, then there might be a kind of silence when it's dropped, only for the mind to go..."well what now zoccy boy?" then the thought comes up that the only way out of this is to disidentify with thoughts. Then another thought pops up to say "ah, but this is the mind creating a problem. thoughts aren't the problem." Nothing changes so i go back to trying to drop it again, and on and on it goes. lol.

"well what now zoccy boy?" - LMAO! Exactly. haha. What now?

Here's the trap, the mind sets the problem up as "dis-identifying from thoughts" - by doing so, it sneaks in the presupposition that there IS something to identify i.e. "YOU". hehe Really sneaky huh?

See each thought...or thinking...with as much face-value as you can. It's sounds, images, sensations. End of. Become a student of thought structure. Notice the kinds of sounds, images/movies, and sensations, all playing out. It's actually quite fun to see the show.

In time, won't need to dis-identify, because when the attention is turned to "me", it'll be seen that this too is thought-content with sounds, images and sensations.

Look forward to your comments...

With best wishes,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

That's cool. Thoughts comes up, some clear, some vague, some blending into each other, some made of sound, maybe images, maybe sensations, in various configurations. Such is the thought stream of a human being.

Now: "ego", "mind", "presence", "I", "ZOC" :) - these are ideas/thoughts ABOUT thoughts, meta-thoughts, if you like, or beliefs. Usually, with a meta-thought that they are true and real - naturally. :)

In this task of seeing that thought content are EXAMPLES OF A TYPE, this includes meta-thoughts, all thoughts.

If there is a practise, one aspect of it IS what you've been doing. Namely, shifting the perception of thoughts from: "the mind is telling me" and so on....TO...more thought-content...examples of a type.

There will be times when a thought comes and hooks the attention. That's ok. Just notice that's what happened and carry on. Nothing to force. This is just a noticing activity.

will carry on with this and also with surrendering to whatever is happening.

"well what now zoccy boy?" - LMAO! Exactly. haha. What now?

Here's the trap, the mind sets the problem up as "dis-identifying from thoughts" - by doing so, it sneaks in the presupposition that there IS something to identify i.e. "YOU". hehe Really sneaky huh?

lol, yeah pretty sneaky :)

although i have to ask, isn't it consciousness (or awareness or whatever it is) that IS identified?

See each thought...or thinking...with as much face-value as you can. It's sounds, images, sensations. End of. Become a student of thought structure. Notice the kinds of sounds, images/movies, and sensations, all playing out. It's actually quite fun to see the show.

In time, won't need to dis-identify, because when the attention is turned to "me", it'll be seen that this too is thought-content with sounds, images and sensations.

Look forward to your comments...

With best wishes,
John

Can we apply the same to emotions or sensations?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

Although i have to ask, isn't it consciousness (or awareness or whatever it is) that IS identified?

For me, that which is pointed to as: "consciousness", "awareness" is unknowable. It means nothing to me, ah Vienna. :)

"Identification" is another ruse.

It's much, much easier to see what is happening, what is showing up, especially the stream of thought and experience. That's the key.

Of course, there will likely be a presumption that "I","me" is doing this work. But once it is seen how experience is made up, then it is not much of a leap to clearly see that "I" is nothing but a figment of a conditioned imagination.

In time, won't need to dis-identify, because when the attention is turned to "me", it'll be seen that this too is thought-content with sounds, images and sensations.

Can we apply the same to emotions or sensations?

Yep, anything that makes up the "goo" of noticed experience. For the sake of this task, you could see ALL this as different kinds of thoughts passing through, some blending together, some more distinct, made of bundles of sound, pictures, movies, feelings, emotions, sensations - a train of experience always chugging through.

Sometimes, there's good noticing and sometimes, crap noticing, where the attention gets "hooked" and it's like you're INSIDE the thought/experience. That's all cool though. It's not bad. Just the brain doing what it does.

Then, your pull out again, back to noticing.

Speak soon,
John

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZOC,

How's it going? No need for good or bad or whatever - just say it like it is.

Ta,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hi ZOC,

How's it going? No need for good or bad or whatever - just say it like it is.

Ta,
John

Hey John,

Sorry for not replying earlier. I didn't see that last post.

Don't really know what to write. Finding it really hard to see thoughts as thoughts and emotions as emotions. Don't get me wrong, I am trying, but find very little energy left to just notice. This is why i ask how much is practice and how much is realizing the truth. The truth should be simple (and that's how it's touted) so i think, why does it all seem so effortful. Maybe i just have a spiritual learning disability!

There is something else i get stuck on. Today for example, there was a lot of anxiety and i would look to see who actually is anxious. Of course i can't find anyone but the mind says it is all still being experienced so fat lot of good it does you to see there is no-one being anxious. So where is the me hiding in this? I know this isn't about just feeling better but, by god, it can't be helped as a motivation.