Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

hi vince--
i will not be able to post for the next 3 days but will reconnect on monday. i will have LOADS of opportunities to see the workings of the self in the mean time, and will keep my sweet spot mantra handy.
peace to you,
ix

[ixturtle]

wow. ego is collapsing and not in a good way. feeling totally disconnected from this work and very much caught in a (very young) child's story. don't want to give up on this ("the people who don't get it are the people who give up"), and also don't want to waste anyone's time. perhaps if you can ask just a simple question i can work with that.

[vinceschubert]

Don't worry about time wasting. Time, like self, is a concept. Not possible to waste it, or spend it.
Define ego.
How is it collapsing ?
Is "feeling disconnected" related to despair ?

[ixturtle]

Define ego.

The way I'm using it is the layers of beliefs and assumptions about self that are a function of conditioning and drive how we show up to ourselves and in the world.

How is it collapsing ?

Ego feels a lot more stable now, but essentially a glossy version of self came down like a house of cards this weekend when a very ugly shadow that was driving a lot of energy/behavior was exposed. what was left in the ashes this morning was a cesspool of early childhood fear, confusion and despair, but with zero "seeing."

Is "feeling disconnected" related to despair ?

Yes, and also just the notion that to talk about the gate completely undermines the story of self/shadows/fears so when stuck in self/shadows/fears its very difficult to see through.

[vinceschubert]

but with zero "seeing."

Ha, not possible.
Do you mean, not seeing it coming or as it occurred ?

what was left in the ashes this morning was a cesspool of early childhood fear, confusion and despair..."

Seeing doesn't mean that you have to like it.
Even retrospective seeing is seeing and will do much to dissipate the conditioning.
It is the coming to the surface of early family stuff that signals 'getting somewhere'.
There needs to be a stable "ego" before it can be seen through. A fragile ego exists in survival mode.

so when stuck in self/shadows/fears its very difficult to see through.

Yes, so just wait till you realise that you were lost in it. With that realization, have a laugh and let it go. There doesn't need to be a postmortem. Analysis just gives it oxygen.
Intend for there to be some kind of trigger that alerts you that you are about to get lost in emotion.
I call unpleasant emotion a Belief Alert. The moment i raise my voice or experience anger or frustration an alarm goes off that says "what belief is behind this vince ?"

..to talk about the gate...

Yes it can be hard to give up some old stuff, especially when you have built a 'you' on the foundation of it, but you don't need to eradicate it, you can't anyway, it is, and always will be part of the story of you. The only difference (a huge difference) is that you are no longer at the mercy of it.
Here's a Haiku from somewhere past. It states the obvious, but dwell in it and more is revealed...
[center]There's times when you're up
and then there's times when you're down,
just like night and day.[/center]

[ixturtle]

Do you mean, not seeing it coming or as it occurred ?

I guess I mean not seeing it as it occurred-- being totally identified with the grief/sadness/rage without a quality of acceptance, "ah, this is happening and it's ok, it's part of what's here." yes, i can look back and say, "wow, that was some intense story there." but meanwhile, there seems to be a frantic inner voice that is trying to repair the story somehow, and trying to find a new way to show up in the world that will get me the "love" i want, since the old strategy is clearly a failure. AGGG!!!

there doesn't need to be a postmortem. Analysis just gives it oxygen.

Right. Thank you.

I call unpleasant emotion a Belief Alert. The moment i raise my voice or experience anger or frustration an alarm goes off that says "what belief is behind this vince ?"

setting that alarm now.

[center]There's times when you're up
and then there's times when you're down,
just like night and day.[/center]

No night without day. No day without night. Each offers a gift to what is alive in the moment. Accept what's here as a gift, including the lack of acceptance. It is all already allowed.

[vinceschubert]

but meanwhile, there seems to be a frantic inner voice that is trying to repair the story somehow

Yes, this will happen, but (a big but)... but you can SEE it happening. This is what robs it of intensity and frequency, until one day you realize that it isn't happening any more.

get me the "love" i want

This is an interesting one. Clearly, everyone is relating to a story of you that they hold, so any love they offer (which is real and tangible) has nothing to do with 'you'. Turning it around the other way, the love you extend when recognising reality seems to emerge from compassion and isn't personal. This includes love for ix.
The world is, as you see it. If you are loving, then "love is in the air". Love is everywhere. (i feel it from you)
Do animals give and receive love ?

[ixturtle]

Do animals give and receive love ?

Great question... let's see... animals act and react based on conditioning, but there is no added story. so much of what we call "love" is story. if love is simply an expression of "being", then yes, animals ARE an expression of love. but beyond that i think they express mostly happiness or fear based on the experience of the present circumstances. am i missing something?

[vinceschubert]

am i missing something?

i have no idea.
What you wrote sound pretty good to me.
i don't know about love or animals. i can only play with thoughts but don't believe any of them.
So can you expand on the want for love, the reason for the demon that struggles for survival ?

[ixturtle]

So can you expand on the want for love, the reason for the demon that struggles for survival ?

Some of what came up this weekend reminded me of the Waylon Jennings song "lookin' for love in all the wrong places." Or rather, lookin' for love in all the wrong ways... it's clearer now that love isn't hard to "get" at all, it's simply what is left when i drop all the ways i protect myself, defend myself, project myself-- in other words, when i drop story. i don't even mean this in the deep "love is awareness" sense but in the simple human connection sense-- when i stop defending, there is a sense of seeing/being seen (love?) that seems naturally present.

so those are the thoughts arising this eve-- off to dreamland...

[vinceschubert]

when i stop defending...

How do you stop defending ?

[ixturtle]

How do you stop defending ?

Good question... and timely.

since there's no "I" to do the stopping, then there is only the noticing when stopping happens.

but to push further...

stopping happens when the mind's old conditioning is seen as not serving the mind/body (my experience this past weekend) OR when it is seen that there is no "i" to defend in the first place (intention of gateless gate).

the downside of the former is that a new strategy to protect "i" wants to jump in place, though when that's seen, the impulse lessons. but i imagine it's the same thing with the absence of "I"... conditioning would seek to replace the "I" and when that is seen the conditioning weakens.

a little torn between these two views-- seems like the latter eclipses the former, and yet the former seems like a powerful doorway as well.

take 2:

How do you stop defending ?

See that what's here, IS HERE and that everything else is story. then stopping happens on its own. (however, this answer feels right now more in the realm of playing with thought than seeing reality...)

[vinceschubert]

Hmm, they are all good answers. All of them show SEEing.

See that what's here, IS HERE and that everything else is story. then stopping happens on its own. (however, this answer feels right now more in the realm of playing with thought than seeing reality...)

This appears to me to be the most direct portal. Even though you say it seems to be a thought game, this too is reality.
The chink in the doorway is "that everything else is story". Try this on for size;
Everything is story ! Stopping is an idea. It can never have form. It is the absence of something.
Notice how you talked of "stopping" and not "defending".
Defending is a word like university. It is a concept that gathers a whole lot of actual things & processes together and becomes shorthand for the ever changing collection.
So what are the things & processes that come under the umbrella of 'defending' ?

There will always be story. The difference (post gate) is that you won't be at the mercy of them. It opens up possibilities that you can create any story and wear it like a raincoat for the convenience of the situation, then put it away until needed (it is useful) again.
With this in mind (ha!) you are not at the whim of having a spontaneously generated story, replacing one you 'kill'.
The replacement can be consciously generated and will always be 'better', but to do this, you need to love your stories even if they are crap.
All of your stories, and their content, and the responses to the content, IS. It is ALL reality. We are now at a different 'level' with story. Now you can SEE story at work. (even though sometimes it is afterwards) This is what will facilitate stories to metamorphise into more useful versions.
Are you trying to change ?
How does that work ?

[ixturtle]

Try this on for size; Everything is story !

and

All of your stories, and their content, and the responses to the content, IS. It is ALL reality.

So everything is story and it is all reality... my mind sorta gets it, but the experience feels far away.

So what are the things & processes that come under the umbrella of 'defending' ?

-presenting a guarded/polished identity to others
-calculating responses to others, even if inauthentic, to get needs met
-lashing out/collapsing when identity feels attacked
-resistance to vulnerability
-resistance to not knowing

all story of course...(and also what "is"...sigh...)

to do this, you need to love your stories even if they are crap.

i thought i knew how to do this, but at the moment all that is arising is deep loathing of the crap... which is a story i guess i'm supposed to love...

Are you trying to change ?
How does that work ?

Once again, any "i" that is "trying" is a story. "trying", like stopping, is a story. "change" seems to point more to a real moment to moment phenomena, but it's still a concept-- like defending.

from a relative perspective, there is a sense of trying to change. like showing up here and posting even when i'm tired and confused and feel like throwing in the towel. i show up because there's a belief that if i do, something (a view? a perspective?) might change. i can accept that wanting a new view and showing up is all just conditioning, just more of what's here, what's happening...

[vinceschubert]

just more of what's here, what's happening...

So what is it that is happening that obscures the Seeing that 'This is It' ?
Does part of you not know that THIS is it ? (i believe that part of you Does know this)
Is a possible future, more attractive than the present ?
Can you know that 'This Is IT' for a millisecond, then not know it ?

i show up because there's a belief that if i do, something (a view? a perspective?) might change.

Is showing up enough to do it ? Probably.
Will it happen because you show up ? No.
What then will cause it to happen ? Nothing. It is causeless.
It is not a happening. When trying to describe it later, it appears to be a happening, an experience, but it isn't.