Keeping It Simple

[Bluejay]

It seems like expectations are a lot of what is sticking around for me. There's a thought-fight between expecting things to change in a way that is distinct and noticeable, and other thoughts that remind me of the fact that whatever "Happens" is completely non-conceptual and can't be conceived of with any voice that thinks it knows. When I had those small glimpses a month or so ago "I" didn't "make" anything happen other than look a certain way, with a certain quality.

Expectations are usually covered at the beginning and end of a conversation for a reason.

So let me ask you this: Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no doer, thinker, controller that is making things happen?

By the way, I found that you can do EMDR on your own at VirtualEMDR.com if you feel comfortable doing it on your own. Apparently you can do it online with a therapist as well.

[gbeene]

Expectations are usually covered at the beginning and end of a conversation for a reason.

So let me ask you this: Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no doer, thinker, controller that is making things happen?

By the way, I found that you can do EMDR on your own at VirtualEMDR.com if you feel comfortable doing it on your own. Apparently you can do it online with a therapist as well.

I can say that I don't believe there is a doer, thinker, controller that can exist outside of a thought. I can also say that I have had moments of seeing that this is true beyond a doubt.

I can also say that it still feels like there is an "I" "doing" things 99% of the day, and it takes effort and mindfulness to shift into a perspective that allows me to see otherwise. I had expectations that that would change and I would be able to live life from a different or more free-feeling place.

If that expectation, and working on the consistency of living from a place where there is no doer, thinker, etc, is something that I need to work on outside of this inquiry or with some further practice or perspective, then I suppose we may be nearing the end of this conversation. :)

I'm still on a waitlist for a few EMDR places around Seattle but will give this site's free trial a shot.

[Bluejay]

I can also say that it still feels like there is an "I" "doing" things 99% of the day, and it takes effort and mindfulness to shift into a perspective that allows me to see otherwise. I had expectations that that would change and I would be able to live life from a different or more free-feeling place.

If you haven't had a shift then we aren't done here. If you feel like doing something else, then let me know. No hard feelings here.

If not, then we continue looking at sticking points. At this point it comes down to taking this inquiry into daily life.

So when you feel like an 'I' doing things during the day, is there an example that comes to mind?

[gbeene]

So when you feel like an 'I' doing things during the day, is there an example that comes to mind?

It feels like "I" am writing this response back to you. "I" read your previous response, compared it to prior knowledge, made evaluations, had thoughts/feelings about myself, you, the process, thought about and analyzed it, got distracted, got refocused, thought about a response, hit submit, and started typing.

Sitting here with my fingers on the keyboard, I shift into the perspective of looking for the doer/thinker/self, inviting the self to show up and start typing. Nothing happens and nothing could happen when I am sitting here like that.

To start typing again takes... something. I think I'm back and stuck on the hand flipping exercise. I am believing that "I" am the one who does the "something" (call it intention, volition, etc) to start actually moving my fingers to type. Or to chew lunch while I type.

The above isn't very direct-experience oriented.

In direct experience, typing this as I am experiencing, there are sounds in the room next to me and from the keyboard, the feeling of motion and pressure in my fingers, the visuals of the screen in front of me, the feeling of being in a body, taking up space (proprioception?) and thoughts.

Thanks for your continued time/effort here. It is valuable to me.

[Bluejay]

This is good stuff.

Let me ask you two questions:

Can you predict your next thought?

Do you control your attention? If so, can you predict where your attention goes next?

[gbeene]

Can you predict your next thought?

When I am not present, I can't. Thoughts and everything is just happening on autopilot, and it's like I've forgotten I am here. No metacognitive awareness.

When I am aware, or present, it feels like I CAN predict the next thought, and that I am actively doing it. Like saying "next thought. next thought. next thought." repeatedly in my head. Or flipping the hand.

Do you control your attention? If so, can you predict where your attention goes next?

Same as above... I know from plenty of "bad" meditation sessions that my attention is the proverbial elephant running wild... but it feels like there are moments of control. The attention piece seems to have some holes, though. It feels like I am actively looking around my screen at will. But did I choose to shift attention to visuals in that same way? I can pay attention to hearing actively, but did I choose to exclude the sense of touch/feeling?

[Bluejay]

When I am aware, or present, it feels like I CAN predict the next thought, and that I am actively doing it. Like saying "next thought. next thought. next thought." repeatedly in my head. Or flipping the hand.

Let's look at this a bit closer. This is thinking right now. Look in direct experience and predict what the next thought will be about. Can you do it?

Same as above... I know from plenty of "bad" meditation sessions that my attention is the proverbial elephant running wild... but it feels like there are moments of control. The attention piece seems to have some holes, though. It feels like I am actively looking around my screen at will. But did I choose to shift attention to visuals in that same way? I can pay attention to hearing actively, but did I choose to exclude the sense of touch/feeling?

This is again thinking instead of looking.

Notice attention. Before it moves. Can you predict where it goes?

Take these two questions into your sits perhaps. Look only in direct experience.

[gbeene]

When I am aware, or present, it feels like I CAN predict the next thought, and that I am actively doing it. Like saying "next thought. next thought. next thought." repeatedly in my head. Or flipping the hand.

Let's look at this a bit closer. This is thinking right now. Look in direct experience and predict what the next thought will be about. Can you do it?

Same as above... I know from plenty of "bad" meditation sessions that my attention is the proverbial elephant running wild... but it feels like there are moments of control. The attention piece seems to have some holes, though. It feels like I am actively looking around my screen at will. But did I choose to shift attention to visuals in that same way? I can pay attention to hearing actively, but did I choose to exclude the sense of touch/feeling?

This is again thinking instead of looking.

Notice attention. Before it moves. Can you predict where it goes?

Take these two questions into your sits perhaps. Look only in direct experience.

Morning Henri!

I can't predict in direct experience. Prediction requires thought. Similarly, attention seems to require thought to distinguish what it's looking at or not. But I am less sure with that.

In a thought investigation, it seems like in order for me to choose what to pay attention to, I would have to be able to have a selection of things available to pay attention to, and make a choice from those things. In direct experience there is only what's being experienced. The motion of attention is just what's on the screen changing + some sense, idk if it's ownership or what, that "I" am paying attention.


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[Bluejay]

Hello!

I can't predict in direct experience. Prediction requires thought. Similarly, attention seems to require thought to distinguish what it's looking at or not. But I am less sure with that.

In a thought investigation, it seems like in order for me to choose what to pay attention to, I would have to be able to have a selection of things available to pay attention to, and make a choice from those things. In direct experience there is only what's being experienced. The motion of attention is just what's on the screen changing + some sense, idk if it's ownership or what, that "I" am paying attention.

It sounds like you're making this more complicated than it is, which means you're trying to answer the questions through thinking.

The question is simple. Close your eyes, if it helps. Look at thoughts coming and going. Now, can you predict the next one?

No thinking needed here. No 'seems like' or logic. Just seeing and reporting back.

Same with attention. Close your eyes. Before attention moves, can you predict where it goes?

[gbeene]

Hello!

There's no ability to predict in direct experience. The next thought or movement of attention, there's nothing there that could do the predicting, and any prediction that gets created is a thought.


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[Bluejay]

There's no ability to predict in direct experience. The next thought or movement of attention, there's nothing there that could do the predicting, and any prediction that gets created is a thought.

Now, do you see the impact this has?

What is the separate self doing if you cannot predict and choose thought, and if you cannot predict/control attention?

[Bluejay]

Also, don't do the above pointers on predicting thought + attention in direct experience. Just do it normally, seeing if thought and attention can be predicted before they happen.

As you noticed, predicting thought requires a thought, and that is the thought that needs to be predicted.

[gbeene]

As you noticed, predicting thought requires a thought, and that is the thought that needs to be predicted.

Morning! Apologies for the delay, I flew back home last week and was stuck in some traveling chaos.

Yes, I can't predict the thought or motion that wants to say it's predicting - this seems to pop out of nowhere with a random target. Similar to attention.

To your other post, I intellectually understand the implications of there not being a thing besides a thought that is doing predicting or "moving attention". If nothing is controlling attention or predicting / choosing the next actions, then the separate self isn't really doing anything.

But, it sure feels like "I" am owning or watching or "here". It feels like I can set intentions, take actions on those intentions, and get results in a way that feels consistent with a remembered past or predicted future.

[Bluejay]

But, it sure feels like "I" am owning or watching or "here". It feels like I can set intentions, take actions on those intentions, and get results in a way that feels consistent with a remembered past or predicted future.

Isn't setting an intention another thought that you can't predict?

What makes an intention special or different from a thought that cannot be predicted?

But, it sure feels like "I" am owning or watching or "here".

Of course, it can feel like it. People can believe all kinds of things and feel like they're true, even when they're not.

The key is to find evidence for it. How do you know an "I" owns something?

If it's a feeling/sensation, is that sensation itself I?
If it's a thought, is that thought the I?
If it's an image, is that the I?

[gbeene]

Morning! I've been looking at these for the last couple days and also exploring the sense of.. what is the consistent aspect of all my experience... like when opening and closing my eyes, something is there completely unaffected by vision but aware of vision, and what is it?

Isn't setting an intention another thought that you can't predict?

What makes an intention special or different from a thought that cannot be predicted?

It is just a thought. But the thinking mind sees that it can predict a future and then follow steps to enact that future, and holds onto that as proof of its control.

I am pretty caught up in feeling I need to convince the thinking mind that this no-control perspective is true to the point where thoughts are agreeing by default that it is true. I think this is where I am struggling with expectation.

The key is to find evidence for it. How do you know an "I" owns something?

If it's a feeling/sensation, is that sensation itself I?
If it's a thought, is that thought the I?
If it's an image, is that the I?

When looking for an I, it can't be found. It consistently moves "out" of the object that feels like I into another, or frequently moves into the looking act itself.

I also know that an I can't actually move or become something, as it's just a thought, but that is how the thinking feels for me right now.


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