I would like a guide please.

[dian]

Hi Vince,
Yes I am very keen to see through the illusion.

kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Yes I am very keen to see through the illusion.

Excellent. In my experience this is the single most important requisite for awakening.
Now i'm not going to read through 17 pages of previous posts, but rather treat it as something fresh. (You've probably changed during them anyway).
So, tell me Dianne, what is your current 'view' on a separate Self ?
..and what are your expectations for what it will be like for Dianne once you have 'woken up' ?

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

Thankyou for agreeing to help me.

So, tell me Dianne, what is your current 'view' on a separate Self ?

My current view is that a separate self is kept alive by thoughts and although thoughts are not in my control they can be very convincing thoughts. At the present time legs are folded under me and pen is writing, birds are heard, fan is felt all is this moment. Separate self seems to come with a thought of what I should be doing now.

..and what are your expectations for what it will be like for Dianne once you have 'woken up' ?

Living more in this moment. Sounds funny but feels like life is lived in thoughts about what was and what is to be in the future. Not much time spent in the present moment.

kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

a separate self is kept alive by thoughts

So, describe this self and how thoughts "keep it alive".

Separate self seems to come with a thought of what I should be doing now.

Ok, i can understand that thoughts can arise that say what you "should be doing now", but describe the separate self that seems to come with them ? Is it separate from the thoughts ?

Living more in this moment.

Is it possible not to live in this moment ?
i hear what you say about thoughts hijacking the focus, but that is all happening in the present moment isn't it ?
Are those thoughts (about the past and future), are they habitual ? Has this been happening all of your life ? ..or did it start at a particular point ?

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

dian wrote:a separate self is kept alive by thoughts
So, describe this self and how thoughts "keep it alive".

A self feels like it's living life through a body. Thoughts keep it going running a commentary on what's happening.
The self is like the reference point. Thoughts are about things in this self's life so known to this self. It's kept alive by what appear to be thoughts that lead on to other thoughts but all pertaining to my life and who and what I know.

dian wrote:Separate self seems to come with a thought of what I should be doing now.
Ok, i can understand that thoughts can arise that say what you "should be doing now", but describe the separate self that seems to come with them ? Is it separate from the thoughts ?

Trying to watch thoughts arise is hard they are very elusive when I try to watch them. I can't actually see a separate self that arises from the thought. As I type now the words are just there and fingers are just typing and no separate self is needed. When typing stops and there is a looking for a thought whatever is trying to answer your questions seems to be a self on a search for answers. The thought arises "the washing machine is noisy". It didn't seem to need a separate self. The thought "am I doing this right" arises, just comes and then goes. Can fixate on it for a while, like it is the sole thought. Like I am keeping it in focus just through this concentration on "am I doing this right."

dian wrote:Living more in this moment.
Is it possible not to live in this moment ?

No have to live in this moment can't live in any other.

i hear what you say about thoughts hijacking the focus, but that is all happening in the present moment isn't it ?
Are those thoughts (about the past and future), are they habitual ? Has this been happening all of your life ? ..or did it start at a particular point ?

I would say they're habitual. In the morning a thought would come to get out of bed. The feeling is that it's me getting out of bed. The kettle is put on and I'm not sure really if a thought comes in or if that's just done. So much is habitual in the morning.

kind regards
]Dianne

[vinceschubert]

A self feels like it's living life through a body.

If i take what you say literally, there is feelings that define this self. Is that right ?
When you say it "feels like..", just what are those feelings ?
Have you seen this video ? The part where the researcher uses virtual reality goggles to re-locate the sense of self to outside the body - behind him. Does this illustrate the feeling that you mention ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E (watch the whole video as i will reference some other bits as we move on. - particularly the bit towards the end where thoughts take up to six seconds to catch up with decisions made)

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

dian wrote:A self feels like it's living life through a body.
If i take what you say literally, there is feelings that define this self. Is that right ?
When you say it "feels like..", just what are those feelings ?

Like life is lived from the perspective of this body. Feels like the view of the outside world is from this body.

Have you seen this video ? The part where the researcher uses virtual reality goggles to re-locate the sense of self to outside the body - behind him. Does this illustrate the feeling that you mention ?

Yes it does.

bye for now
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

dian wrote:A self feels like it's living life through a body.
vince asked; If i take what you say literally, there is feelings that define this self. Is that right ?
When you say it "feels like..", just what are those feelings ?
dian replied; Like life is lived from the perspective of this body. Feels like the view of the outside world is from this body.

What you say doesn't seem like feelings (sensations). They appear to be more like thoughts.
Can you examine this in much more detail and describe what arises as you do this. (thoughts, emotions, sensations)
There is no right or wrong answers here. (you can't do it wrong) Just report what arises as fully as you can.

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

dian wrote:A self feels like it's living life through a body.
vince asked; If i take what you say literally, there is feelings that define this self. Is that right ?
When you say it "feels like..", just what are those feelings ?
dian replied; Like life is lived from the perspective of this body. Feels like the view of the outside world is from this body. What you say doesn't seem like feelings (sensations). They appear to be more like thoughts.
Can you examine this in much more detail and describe what arises as you do this. (thoughts, emotions, sensations)
There is no right or wrong answers here. (you can't do it wrong) Just report what arises as fully as you can

.

No can't find the feelings. Confusion arises when trying to describe this. Can't pin point the feeling of self. No sensations. I started and stopped sentences trying to answer this. I don't know what a self feels like.
It's very late here, I will look at this again in the morning.

Bye for now
Dianne

[dian]

Vince did you want me to write any more on your last questions.

regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Oh, when you said that you would look again, i was expecting more.
No worries, there is much in what you have written that we can consider.

Can't pin point the feeling of self. No sensations.

It is common in our language to say "I feel that ..." when what is meant that "I think that ...". Was this the case when you said "A self feels like it's living life through a body." ?

A "Sense of Self" is a bit more subtle. Perhaps we can't actually define it, but we can be certain from that video that is can be manipulated. When the researcher relocated that 'sense', it became apparent that it is the result of conditions. The brain taking visual and tactile cues and positioning the sense of self in the body. So regardless of how real it feels, do you think it is an actual Self ?

love

vince

[dian]

Hi Vince,

dian wrote:Can't pin point the feeling of self. No sensations.
It is common in our language to say "I feel that ..." when what is meant that "I think that ...". Was this the case when you said "A self feels like it's living life through a body." ?

If I go with what's right here right now - palm trees are seen through glass doors. I can't see that life is lived from this body just view of palm trees. Anything else is a thought.

So regardless of how real it feels, do you think it is an actual Self ?

No not an actual self.

regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Morning Dianne.

If I go with what's right here right now - palm trees are seen through glass doors. I can't see that life is lived from this body

So it's a case of attention. Of noticing, is it ? Like when you forget and conditioning takes over, there is the sense of a self running the show ? Is this how it is ?
Are there expectations, or hopes, that say that the beautiful calm and peace that is experienced (my story) as you view the palm trees, can be always there ?

love

vince

[dian]

Good Morning Vince,

dian wrote:
If I go with what's right here right now - palm trees are seen through glass doors. I can't see that life is lived from this body
So it's a case of attention. Of noticing, is it ? Like when you forget and conditioning takes over, there is the sense of a self running the show ? Is this how it is ?

Are there expectations, or hopes, that say that the beautiful calm and peace that is experienced (my story) as you view the palm trees, can be always there ?

I dont think I have the expectation of being calm and peaceful always just sitting gazing at palm trees. I'm pretty sure boredom would set in quickly if I did that all day. I was saying that feeling of self didn't actually come into what was happening in the moment until thoughts came in. So yes I do tend to say I feel that the body is lived from this perspective when it is a thought more than a feeling.
Thoughts do tend to run the show a lot and just looking without thoughts hijacking the present moment is something I find myself trying to do. Not to stop the thoughts but to notice when the thoughts come in.

kind regards
Dianne

[vinceschubert]

Hi Dianne.

Not to stop the thoughts but to notice when the thoughts come in.

Ah, ok. Two things arise with this. Firstly, when you say that this is something that you are "trying to do", There is the implication that it is something that you can do.
Do you have the actual control to do this at will ?

Getting lost in thought is something that has probably been happening for many years (almost all of your life) so it is a conditioned response. That is the brain is wired for it to happen and not wired for it to not happen.
By "wired", i am referring to neuronal pathways that are chains of synaptic connections. These pathways will atrophy with lack of use and new pathways will establish when something new is learned.
Try doing this;
The Recognition that you have automatically entered into the expression of thought content will happen either after it happens, during the happening, or just before it is about to happen.
Whenever that Recognition dawns on you, celebrate it with a laugh.
That laugh can be anything from an inward chuckle to a full bellied guffaw. Whatever it is, the important thing is that you feel your stomach contract.
This has the effect of flooding your system with oxytocin (anti-stress hormones) and will instantly change your mood. It has the added effect of aborting the 'completion satisfaction' of the old way of being which encourages the atrophy of the old synaptic connections that made up that neuronal pathway. Further it establishes new connections and pathways and so soon these are the automatic responses.
It doesn't matter when the Recognition occurs. Celebrate it !

Have a look at this video for more in this;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

do respond with your experiencing of this.

love

vince