Ready to go

[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

Good work looking, and the expansiveness you mention is a sign you're looking in the right direction! Though it would be good to return to the second set of questions in the last post too, especially the ones about 'sub-thought's after the event (thought and action) that calls it 'My, Me, Mine'.

A tip: Look for the thinker of thoughts amidst the 'thought-heavy work' too..even as simply as asking one or more of these questions for a moment of looking: " Did 'I' think the thought or did it arise by itself?" 'Is this thought aware of anything? Can a thought think?

Also look more closely at this: What part of the world are 'you' in control of? Then look for the 'I' making things happen, "'I' did that. 'I' prevented that, 'I' created that." Is it true? Things happen, for sure, but what exactly MAKES them happen?

Love,

V x

[philkingston]

Just got this after this morning session so will work on it through day.

One question though. From your post Gate perspective what's the function of thought? What's it meant yo be used for?

Love

LV x



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[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

One question though. From your post Gate perspective what's the function of thought? What's it meant yo be used for?

Who uses it?

V x

[philkingston]

No one it seems from today's looking. Thoughts were reactions to sensations or feelings or other thoughts. When I remembered to look there was no 'I' there having them, there was only the memory of a stream of thoughts conditioning other thoughts. And they aren't aware though they/ 'I' are convinced they are. They just happen. And can't make anything happen. They kind of run on doing their thing but the 'self' story imputed all sorts of extra powers.

Am just seeing this. The habit of the self narrative kicks in when I'm not looking but the looking felt new today.


Love

LV x


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[Douglita]

Hi LV,

No one it seems from today's looking. Thoughts were reactions to sensations or feelings or other thoughts. When I remembered to look there was no 'I' there having them, there was only the memory of a stream of thoughts conditioning other thoughts.

Excellent looking. To refer back again to your previous post/question, thinking, figuring out etc will go on (post 'gate') but won't be bought into, especially in the sense of identifying with it. Thought is no problem so long as it is not identified with and is seen just for what it is (ephemeral, insubstantial), not assumed to be ultimate truth.

Keep looking in this area because it's crucial. What is beginning to be seen now is how the self-view or belief is ‘projected’ onto all this. Sense experience, current mental activities (including memory) and the sense of continuity of experience are all naturally arising and in themselves non-problematic. Thoughts / memories are only problematic if the story they are telling is bought into as real. What I mean by their being ‘problematic’ is that, delusively regarded in this way, they give rise to suffering.

And they aren't aware though they/ 'I' are convinced they are. They just happen. And can't make anything happen. They kind of run on doing their thing but the 'self' story imputed all sorts of extra powers.

Am just seeing this. The habit of the self narrative kicks in when I'm not looking but the looking felt new today.

Exactly! The self-story 'imputed all sorts of extra powers' (as it does)!

So when you say

And they aren't aware though they/ 'I' are convinced they are.

what does I refer to there? In direct experience, where is that self-identification taking place? Please look at this in direct experience and write me your observations.

Love, V x

[philkingston]

Hi Vajradakini,

The belief that thoughts are aware does disappear I'm director experience. It's just an assumption that I'm being aware with my thoughts but when I look there is sensation and thoughts on an equal par, all within awareness. Strong sense of this today that I can't find a self when looking directly into experience. It's simpler than I thought before, you just look and there's nothing else there except sensation and thoughts. For example I was working with papanca arising from being attracted to someone, not wanting to feed this response. Before the decision to do this would have been proof to me of a self deciding something, today it was clear that deciding was happening, that is all that can reliably be said. That it is a me doing it is added on.

What's been helping lately is a video my wife pointed me to on Hot Chocolate Yoga by Rupert Spira which advises letting whatever cravings arise have space and acceptance without either suppressing them or acting out on them. This chimes with a more open hearted accepting approach to this process, 'looking with the heart', as we've said before.

To return to your question about where the the self identification is taking place...

It's just another story. I was looking too hard before, the answers feel more straightforward today. The self identification is part of a habit I have to ascribe self hood to so much of what goes on in my head but which are, regardless of their sophistication or level of meta commentary, simply more thoughts.

Love

Lalitavira x




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[philkingston]

Sorry first line should read 'disappear in direct experience'


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[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

The belief that thoughts are aware does disappear in direct experience. It's just an assumption that I'm being aware with my thoughts but when I look there is sensation and thoughts on an equal par, all within awareness. Strong sense of this today that I can't find a self when looking directly into experience. It's simpler than I thought before, you just look and there's nothing else there except sensation and thoughts. For example I was working with papanca arising from being attracted to someone, not wanting to feed this response. Before the decision to do this would have been proof to me of a self deciding something, today it was clear that deciding was happening, that is all that can reliably be said. That it is a me doing it is added on.

Well seen; it is indeed that simple!

What's been helping lately is a video my wife pointed me to on Hot Chocolate Yoga by Rupert Spira which advises letting whatever cravings arise have space and acceptance without either suppressing them or acting out on them. This chimes with a more open hearted accepting approach to this process, 'looking with the heart', as we've said before.

Yes...that's an excellent approach! Relax, observe and accept whatever arises, (as you say, without suppressing or acting out). It also gets easier to work with craving etc. when you're clear there's no real entity craving.

To return to your question about where the the self identification is taking place...

It's just another story. I was looking too hard before, the answers feel more straightforward today. The self identification is part of a habit I have to ascribe self hood to so much of what goes on in my head but which are, regardless of their sophistication or level of meta commentary, simply more thoughts.

I'm very glad to hear that the looking is simpler and more effortless now. How does it feel to see that self-indentification is just a habit and 'more thoughts'?

Is there any doubt or unclarity remaining that the self is nothing more than a mental fabrication?

Love, V x

[philkingston]

Hi,

How does it feel? Pretty damn good. Not the fireworks I was expecting from reading The Gateless Gatecrashers and in many ways nothing has changed in that a lot of the mental traffic feels very similar BUT I feel looser to it, it is less all encompassing, it has less grip. I also see what clouds the clarity about this, craving, daydreaming etc.. a list of mainly mental habits which, well, feel like they're not helping. And unsurprisingly they are all related to ethics.

Something has shifted though and I see it in my answer to your second question which is that when 'I' reply to it ( as opposed to my thoughts replying) the answer is no doubt. There's a confidence that if any reaction were to be looked at clearly no self would be found. There was an expectation that all thoughts of self would automatically drop away which has maybe been getting in the way of seeing this.

It's all feeling very quiet for such a big deal.

Love,

LV xxx

[Douglita]

Well big S m i l e here for your quiet big deal! I'm happy for you.

I'd like you to sit with this another wee while and 'percolate' before I give you some clarifying questions and - you may feel like you've had enough questions already ;-) - but it would be good to know whatever comes up in response to this too:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?



Love, V x

[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

How's it going?

V x

[philkingston]

Sorry, family stuff. No space for considered response until tonight. Love, LV


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[Douglita]

That's fine. V x

[philkingston]

Hi Vajradakini,

With 'you' revealed as a story what remains?

In DE, sensation, feeling, thought. Outside of this the mental habits of having a fixed self.

What experiences?

Nothing, there's just experience.

What thinks?

Nothing, thinking happens.

What does?

Doing occurs, along with all the other activity in life, some of it occurs through the mind and body associated with 'me'

What is aware?

There's just awareness.

Now all these aren't my first answer but were come to after some consideration. In the last two days I haven't experienced any of the peace, bliss, contentment that seem to characterise others experience through the gate and if one continues to experience selfing because of previous mental habits then mine must be very strong because there doesn't seem to be any change in how the world is being experienced.

Am wondering if I've been premature about believing something's shifted?

Love,

LV x


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[Douglita]

Hi Lalitavira,

What I would suggest is systematically looking at all the following again (in DE) without giving them any consideration at all (!)...by which I mean don't think about them (more than you need to think to write down what happens).

I don't know if you were 'premature' before, but it reads more like "now you see it now you don't"! I imagine that you do see, then thoughts/doubts come in to obscure the whole thing. No worries!

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

If having really looked at all those and doubt still remains about a separate self being there, or still being believed in, where else can this self reside (or still be hiding)?

I will be in hospital for a couple of days and may be unable to write during that time as I'm having an operation on my knee. Take time to look in experience only at the questions above. There are no right answers, only true answers. What's true in actual experience, in blood and guts, in the heart? It's available to touch, see, feel, right now.

I'm sure you're familiar with this quote: "Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."[2]

Much love,

Vajradakini