Who am I really?

[Elad]

Hey Elad,
I don't think I'd done this one before. While doing it I can notice the feeling of disassociation with the body briefly then quickly a thought coming up to pull the story back together. Then letting go of the thought and feeling again how there's nothing actually in immediate experience that definitively connects feelings to what’s seen either in the mirror or not. It’s a bit disconcerting at first, kind of floaty feeling. I only made time to do it once today, tomorrow I'll try to keep going with it.

Good "looking"! :)

[razorsedge]

Hi Elad,
I’m feeling the love again. I’m not trying to get caught up in any experience of anything--all things go, but that feeling of deep gratitude and wellbeing is still surprising present and beautiful.

With the mirror exercise it’s clear that the feelings of the body are felt feelings that only thoughts connect to a body.

When moving it is clear that there are changing sensations but it doesn’t feel like they’re being controlled or willed or that they’re necessarily attached to what is seen happening with the body.

The visual part of it is still tricky. Even looking with as little thought as possible it’s hard to see that it’s just “colors and shapes.” It makes sense conceptually, and of course what it actually being seen is just colors and shapes but separation and distance feel “real.” There’s an image labeled room but it’s not seen clearly that it’s without location. It must be connected to thought in some way, I will keep looking.

[Elad]

Hi Elad,
I’m feeling the love again. I’m not trying to get caught up in any experience of anything--all things go, but that feeling of deep gratitude and wellbeing is still surprising present and beautiful.

With the mirror exercise it’s clear that the feelings of the body are felt feelings that only thoughts connect to a body.

When moving it is clear that there are changing sensations but it doesn’t feel like they’re being controlled or willed or that they’re necessarily attached to what is seen happening with the body.

The visual part of it is still tricky. Even looking with as little thought as possible it’s hard to see that it’s just “colors and shapes.” It makes sense conceptually, and of course what it actually being seen is just colors and shapes but separation and distance feel “real.” There’s an image labeled room but it’s not seen clearly that it’s without location. It must be connected to thought in some way, I will keep looking.

Lovely lovely

Yes look more. Sight is the sense that gets most mixed up with thought for many of us....


Here is another exercise also (again, if you had it long time ago, do again fresh from NOW):


Sight-Sensation Correlation Exercise

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate...

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand). But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

[razorsedge]

I like that I don’t even really know why these exercises are related. I know I could probably get there conceptually but I’m sort of consciously avoiding doing that.

It’s pretty clear how the feeling of a hand is there--it’s not so much a “hand-like” feeling as it is just a cloud of sensation or slightly tingly vibration. The feeling doesn’t feel localized or with boundaries. It’s not so much that it’s everywhere, more that it’s just not really anywhere specific.

When I look at the hand and feel it, it’s clear that both sensations are present and, in a way, distinct. It almost immediately feels like the cloud of feeling shifts “into” the hand but there’s a moment before where they’re two sensations in the same space but that there’s no “inside” in the hand, it’s a feeling and a seeing. In a way it feels relaxing and expansive.

[Elad]

I like that I don’t even really know why these exercises are related. I know I could probably get there conceptually but I’m sort of consciously avoiding doing that.

It’s pretty clear how the feeling of a hand is there--it’s not so much a “hand-like” feeling as it is just a cloud of sensation or slightly tingly vibration. The feeling doesn’t feel localized or with boundaries. It’s not so much that it’s everywhere, more that it’s just not really anywhere specific.

When I look at the hand and feel it, it’s clear that both sensations are present and, in a way, distinct. It almost immediately feels like the cloud of feeling shifts “into” the hand but there’s a moment before where they’re two sensations in the same space but that there’s no “inside” in the hand, it’s a feeling and a seeing. In a way it feels relaxing and expansive.

Great! How with other body parts, especially the head/face?

[razorsedge]

I did the exercise several times--feeling the face and head, then looking at the mirror. It takes a few times before I get past the mind having a preset narrative about what happened before it even happens. With the inside of the mouth especially it feels like it’s a very abstract feeling that is ... not exactly related to what’s seen. Inside the mouth feels like somewhere attention can go but that it’s not really located “in” the image in the mirror or anywhere else I guess. The face in the mirror can feel almost completely separate from the feeling of “me.” Or rather it can begin to feel like it’s part of all the rest of what’s being seen but not particularly special relative to everything else.

Yesterday and today were days where it felt like a lot of energy is moving. As always, I’m not sure why but since it’s something new as of a month or two ago, it seems maybe worth mentioning. It’s almost like the feeling of fear without any story associated with it this time. Fear without being scary.

Otherwise I’m trying to stay with the real as much as possible. Noticing where thoughts claim they’re a self wanting or not wanting and then looking at what is actually happening which is usually just a feeling and a story. Noticing how without the thought of a self, there isn’t one but the rest of life remains. Reality sometimes feels thin in a way, like it’s just not very substantial even though there are feelings that I’d describe as “solid.”

[Elad]

I did the exercise several times--feeling the face and head, then looking at the mirror. It takes a few times before I get past the mind having a preset narrative about what happened before it even happens. With the inside of the mouth especially it feels like it’s a very abstract feeling that is ... not exactly related to what’s seen. Inside the mouth feels like somewhere attention can go but that it’s not really located “in” the image in the mirror or anywhere else I guess. The face in the mirror can feel almost completely separate from the feeling of “me.” Or rather it can begin to feel like it’s part of all the rest of what’s being seen but not particularly special relative to everything else.

Yesterday and today were days where it felt like a lot of energy is moving. As always, I’m not sure why but since it’s something new as of a month or two ago, it seems maybe worth mentioning. It’s almost like the feeling of fear without any story associated with it this time. Fear without being scary.

Otherwise I’m trying to stay with the real as much as possible. Noticing where thoughts claim they’re a self wanting or not wanting and then looking at what is actually happening which is usually just a feeling and a story. Noticing how without the thought of a self, there isn’t one but the rest of life remains. Reality sometimes feels thin in a way, like it’s just not very substantial even though there are feelings that I’d describe as “solid.”

Sounds like you are deepening beautifully.

What would reality being "thin" or "solid" mean in direct experience?


Here is another exercise:


Scales - Sensation-Thought Correlation


1. Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?

2. Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier. Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

[razorsedge]

What would reality being "thin" or "solid" mean in direct experience?

In direct experience ... I’m not really sure. It seems that it’s just a thought to describe direct experience that way. It’s not so much that I don’t find thin or solid in DE, as that it’s hard to give attributes to direct experience in general. Like I could say it’s colorful and varied, that it changes, or that there are different ways to sense it but not really much else it seems.


---


1. Thoughts comment on sensations which seems to indicate that yes, there is a link between them. That said, I don’t know how to actually see that link in direct experience, only through inference.

Looking directly, there is what’s sensed and, alongside the senses, thoughts. Without paying attention to what the thoughts are actually saying, there is no obvious link between senses and thoughts.

2. It seems that I can’t hold thoughts and sensations equally. When I try, it seems almost like attention can only be fully on one sense at a time. If it’s on thoughts, it’s not that there’s no seeing at all, but in a way it feels like seeing isn’t actually sensed.

It seems that the other way around it’s very similar--if attention is placed entirely on sight (or any other sensation), thought may be present, but it’s almost as if it wasn’t because the seeing drowns it out.

It feels like attention is a spotlight that can only really be on one sensation, including thoughts, at a time. The other senses seem to continue sensing--at least the body acts as if that’s the case. If I’m driving I don’t crash if I focus on thinking, but awareness of other senses seems to be very minimal when attention is focused on another one.

[Elad]

Good good.

So, there is no separate self, no independent doer, there never was. What reactions come up?


Also, giving you a bunch of short LU exercises. Go through as many a day as you wish. Go through them FRESHLY, as if you have no idea what is true, from as quiet and meditative a mindspace as possible.



Simple Individual Exercises

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.
“Can you see a self making the body leave the bed?”
2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.
3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?
4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?
5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?
6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?
7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
8.
9. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on
​Ask the client to go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the
computer. Ask questions to why they decided to choose that object.
breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention? Describe what you see.

[razorsedge]

Hey Elad,
I’ve done the exercises, many of them many times, especially #8 :)

It’s been a mixture of experiences--

Noticing that there’s still some fear and reticence. Allowing it. It feels like it’s moving through, sometimes almost literally like energy moving through parts of the body.

Noticing that there’s sometimes still impatience and thoughts of why’s it not “working.” I know that’s not how this happens but the thoughts arise sometimes nonetheless.

Noticing that there’s sometimes ideas of how this will benefit the self. This usually followed by a closer look to see where the self is that could benefit from this actually is (and not finding it).

Lots of noticing that decisions aren’t made except by thoughts that aren’t chosen. Sometimes this feels light and obvious and sometimes it feels surprising. There’s just no room for a separate chooser and no evidence of one at all.

Right now looking for self it doesn’t feel either obvious that there’s no self or that there is a self. Without thinking about it, life is moving on as usual and without the need for attempts to control it.

Also I know I agreed not to but today I watched some Tony Parsons. I felt like I wanted to get that type of blunt shock to get things moving. It did bring up some fear, which is a relief, but I don’t want to continue to go back on what I said I’d not do.

[Elad]

Feel free to watch choking videos at this point... 😄

1) Right now, without thinking, is there a separate "you" that fear or hesitation is happening to, or is it just fear arising?

2) If there’s no chooser, no controller, and life moves on as usual—who or what needs this to “work”?

3) What happens when you stop trying to locate a self or confirm its absence? What remains? Is there anything left that could "get this"—or is it already just what is?

[Elad]

Hey Scott,

Been a little while—curious what’s happening over there. Are things still moving through? Is there still a sense that something needs to “work”? Or has that settled?

Let’s keep looking.

Elad

[Elad]

Scott,

I think about you from time to time. This disappearance seems very unlike the vibe and ways I experienced with you until now. Hope to hear from you what is happening.

[razorsedge]

Hey Elad,
I don't really know why I disappeared but I'm very happy that you checked in--thank you. I'm not sure how best to describe what's going on here. I've continued looking almost constantly but it's more of a noticing feeling than a seeking feeling. I'll do exercises sometimes when it comes up to do them, but only when it feels like there's genuine curiosity. Life seems to be flowing with ups and downs of all sorts but almost none of them seem sticky or scary.

Thoughts come up and are noticed but there's a feeling of there being more distance from them--I'm not sure if it's just another sneaky layer of thought, but it feels like it's a lot harder for there to be a belief that thoughts are coming from a "me." It also feels harder to believe that thoughts and what I'm doing are related at much more than a surface commentary level. Sometimes life feels like just unfolding and it's fascinating and beautiful. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, it still doesn't feel like there is a clear no-self understanding at all. At times that feels really frustrating like "it should have become clearer by now!" Most of the time though, like right now, I feel at peace with the way things are. Maybe that's why I stopped posting here for a time (I always intended to come back!). It felt like there was less of a need to push and pull on getting clarity. Maybe that's complacency? I have no idea :) Whatever the case, this continues to be the primary focus and ultimate purpose of this lifetime with no exceptions that I am aware of. When it comes up that I'm still afraid or clinging to something else, I try not to shy away from looking at anything and everything with full openness.

Thank you again for reaching out!

Best,
Marcus

[Elad]

Hi Marcus,

Great to hear this and to hear from you. Sounds like your process/life is moving beautifully.

Here is the thought that comes up: I wonder if what keeps the last doubt is a remnant of believing seeing through self should be something more special then what is clear for you. What if it REALLY as we all say JUST is recognizing that there actually is no separate doer, responsible one, controlling one?

What if that is trivially obvious and the only thing that makes it hard to get, is an expectation that it should feel more special? That there should be no sense of self or being caught up egoic tendencies and preoccupations and fantasies? What if such grand fantasies is the last little hidrance to just let the obvious be aknowledged as such?

That that little bittle recognition is it, and it doesn't really big time change anything in a dramatic way, but that this almost trivial seeing and recognizing can support a gradual one moment at the time settling into life with more surrendering and flowing... And with no magical disappreance of egoic patterns and tendencies, but that there is somewhat more capacity to see it now and that it gets dropped by itself more often, just out of simple trivial recognition that trying to stand out from experience and control it doesn't work, can't really be done? And that yet, paradoxically, all normal efforts and processes of learning and maturing and unlearning continue...

Isn't that all ready so for you? Isn't that a nondramatic, almost trivial, yet true and genuine recognition of no separate self, and then the long (lifelong) process of deconditioning and maturing continuing one moment at the time?